BUMP! Anyone else think about this case?
BUMP! Anyone else think about this case?
I do Riot. Quite often, actually. While I am certainly no "expert," I've always had a fascination with this case and have read lots about it--forgotten most of it. LOL. I was a kid when the Elizabeth Montgomery movie came out--scared the shit out of me!!! I'd love to one day visit the house, museums, etc. Okay, so now that this reads like the rantings of a 12 year old, how about you weigh in? Would love to read your thoughts!
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I think Lizzie did it with the possible aid of her sister during the aftermath...helping Lizzie with coverup for the good of the family name. Given the Bordens' status in town, a prim and proper daughter being accused, the lack of hard evidence, her conduct during proceedings (fainting) creating sympathy, and back then it was nearly impossible for a woman such as Lizzie's station in life to be convicted of such savage murders, are the reasons she was acquitted.
I don't think she did it, but I think she knows who did. I go back and forth sometimes, it was my favorite case as a young teen.
Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils.
This case always fascinates me. Lizzy and I share a birthday (and a name! her first name is my middle name ). I would love to spend some time in that house
Missing my Pa every day. RIP Daddy ❤️♥️
“Get drunk and sing Elvira”
...or Emma could have left town not having any idea what Lizzie had planned, but upon Emma's return, she collaborated with Lizzie to aid in the cover-up. I don't think there was any love lost between Emma and her step-mother either and also had her eye on Andrew's estate, although maybe not to the degree to that of Lizzie. After all, Andrew was very wealthy (worth to the tune of around $10M in today's money) but insisted on living almost miserly, as in not even running water in the house.
Ther was certainly grounds for reasonable doubt in this case
New Lizzie Borden movie on Lifetime tonight. Christina Ricci is playing her.
Can't see her as Lizzie and I know they are going to throw in so much bullshit.. It's Christina though and I much watch. Still can't see how they ever pictured her as Lizzie though. Saw her on Ferguson last night and she's convinced no one else could have done it since she was the only one there. Obviously she didn't research the case too much.
Just like Bonnie and Clyde, this is so disappointing I need to quit watching shows about things I know a lot about.
Oh, I don't even know where to start with that movie...
Did anyone see the movie on Netflix, "Lizzie," about a woman who moves into the Lizzie Borden house? It was....interesting. Sort of. I generally do not use my kids' real names here, but Little Bit's real first name is Elizabeth, and we call her Lizzie for short. Because of Lizzie Borden, my momma refuses to call Little Bit "Lizzie." Instead she calls her "Liz."
"Tequila may not be the answer, but it's worth a shot."
"I just go here!"
"I am not psychic. I AM psychotic. BIG difference."
So after watching the movie, which my mom was hanging off every scene, I thought it was pretty good considering it was a cable flick. 11 whacks though is still a lot of rage to let loose on somebodies face, with a hatchet. The birth-giver was very surprised at how vicious the crime really was.
Christina Ricci was a good casting choice I thought. She can pull off demure and crazy at the same time.
Regards,
Tamie
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When you are dead, you don't know you are dead. It is difficult only for the others. It is the same when you are stupid.
To me, Eliz. Montgomery will always be Lizzie Borden. I used to watch that movie over and over when it aired on tv, just because of her performance.
I didn't see this new movie (I was actually in bed by 9:30p last night!!-What happened to my youth?? 25 years ago I'd be getting ready to go out at that time instead of going to bed). But I can see where Christina Ricci would be a good pick for the part. I always liked Christina, especially in the Adams Family movies. If they repeat the movie on Lifetime I may watch it just out of curiosity.
Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils.
Missed it!! If anyone knows when they re-play it, please post.....
I loved the Elizabeth Montgomery version.....wish they would put it out on DVD.....
Last edited by maryd; 01-26-2014 at 01:10 PM. Reason: Forgot something. Oops.
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I don't know the story in great detail so I was very entertained by the movie. Unlike Bonnie and Clyde where I was watching the clock thinking "get on with it"...this one was edgy and creepy and well cast, I thought. Her dad looked like a creepy bugger too.
Regards,
Tamie
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When you are dead, you don't know you are dead. It is difficult only for the others. It is the same when you are stupid.
Thanks!! And yes, the old one was so scary....remember the theme song?? The rinky tinky old time piano in it??? And I distinctly remember how controversial their idea of the truth was--That Lizzie committed the murders naked, so as not to have blood all over her clothes....
I liked the modern music they used for the most recent version. They took the expected creative liberties, but it wasn't bad.
Yep. The music was one of the things that creeped me out the most. Whoever was in charge of selecting that music was pure genious! I thought the explanation of her committing the murders naked was plausible. We'll never know what really happened, and there are many, many theories floating around out there. Looking forward to the movie (and then of course coming back here to yak about it!).
------------So I am approximately an hour into the movie. I really want to like this. I hafta say though, that I'm so far quite unimpressed. It's like one of those movies that starts off kind of eh, you wait for it to get better, and the next thing you know, the end credits are rolling. Hope it's not going to be that kind of movie.
Last edited by maryd; 01-26-2014 at 06:53 PM.
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The new LB flick was plumb awful IMO. Save for the reliable Stephen McHattie, the cast was off. Everybody else was physically the wrong type: the sisters too young-looking, Ricci projecting unambiguous creepy (surprise!), the lady who played the step-mom was too tall and relatively slender. Please, if the REAL Lizzie was ANYTHING like Christina Ricci's portrayal (for which I blame the director and writers of this mess), she'd have been hanged before the week was out, without a trial.
Actually, it seemed to me, they were drawing a parallel between Lizzie and Jodi Arias, another petite, seemingly fragile young woman who viciously slaughtered someone who was bigger and stronger, but for the element of surprise when he was at his most vulnerable. Getting the jump on the stepmother when she was kneeling with her back to the door, and giving Dad the smack-down while he was napping turned out to be easy-peasy for Lizzie!
They borrowed a point or two from the Montgomery version (Naked Came The Axe-Murderess), but with the anachronistic rock score!!!! And AGAIN they left out the fact that the dead bio-mother's brother was visiting and was also considered a suspect, as well as the loony cousin/"half-brother" (who later suffered a weird, awful death himself).... The only factoid that was new to me was the (apparently) unrelated axe murder in the area later that year. Axe murders seemed to be quite popular for the next 25 or so years, until WWI.
Did Lizzie do it? Apparently she could. Or she could have put someone else up to it--- the demented cousin-brother or a disgruntled employee? Did the sister and the maid know and/or play a part? Well, the sisters did not associate for the last years of their lives for a reason, and the maid left and flew under the radar for many years, not even telling whatever she knew or believed on her deathbed.
And as for the uncle, he made a point of accounting for his absence that day with a minute-by-minute synposis of exactly where he went, at what time, and with whom he spoke. He COULD simply have been anal about details like that, but he gave the impression that he was looking at his watch every other minute for a reason. Then he drifted back to his home in Iowa, where, it was noted, he was considered a suspect in the Villisca murders until it was learned that the elderly gentleman had died some months prior.
Last edited by Linnie; 01-29-2014 at 03:26 PM.
Here is a new Lizzie movie on Netflix but I haven't seen it:
Lizzie2013NR86 minutes The brutal 1892 hatchet murders of the infamous Lizzie Borden acquittal come alive when present-day Lizzie Allen moves back into her childhood home.
Cast:Amanda Baker, Don Swayze, Corbin Bernsen Genre:Horror Movies, Thrillers, Slasher and Serial Killer Movies, Supernatural Horror Movies This movie is:Scary
To understand the living, you got to commune with the dead.
Minerva
I think Lizzie did it, with her sis helping in the cover up as both would inherit a butt load of money. I think the maid and the uncle were paid well by the sisters to know nothing and disappear. Abby's sisters were distraught to the point of being vocal about who did it until those women received checks.
As we all know, after the trial Lizzie and Emma bought "Maplecroft" in the upscale Hill part of town and lived there for many years. I've read theories that there was a pervy incestuous thing going on between the sisters, before and after the murders. That was the cause of Emma moving out years later because Lizzie found a new lover in the form of the the dance hall girl, Nance O'Neil.
I believe there were a number of people who knew Lizzie did it but, under the guidance of Lizzie's attorney, were paid well enough to help ensure Lizzie's acquittal and keep quiet afterward. Who knows, maybe even some other Falls River city fathers were in on the cover up, arranging for asloppy investigation and bungled prosecution. Why? To protect the town's rep. Even though Andrew was a tightwad, he wielded much influence through his considerable wealth.
I can't decide if I think Lizzie did it or not. I've thought about it for many years, have researched it, and just can't make up my mind. I guess we'll never really know. It's been too many years, "facts" are flawed, and all that's left is simply conjecture, IMO.
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This has some information about the uncle and the cousin/alleged half-brother, who died in a bizarre "suicide."
http://my.ilstu.edu/~ftmorn/cjhistor...ud/borden.html
Something you may not know…
The Borden family is no stranger to tragedy. Just next door to the Borden home was the home of Lizzie’s Great Uncle Lawdwick. Uncle Lawdwick’s second wife, Eliza Darling Borden brutally murdered 2 of their 3 children when she threw all of them down a well just before slitting her own throat with a straight razor.
It is said that these 2 children, Eliza and Holder, haunt the Lizzie Borden House today. It is not uncommon for guests to bring small toys for the earthbound spirits to play with. Guests have reported hearing children’s laughter and the sound of children playing on the second and third floors. There is a room in the house called the “children’s room” where most of the activity has been experienced.
I think it's fair to say the Borden family had issues.
The further story of the murders of the children--- whom Lizzie and even Emma never knew, as they died a few years prior to Emma's birth and years before father Andrew bought the larger house next door.
http://lizziebordenwarpsandwefts.com...wdwick-borden/
One of the three children put into the well, Maria, DID survive and lived to adulthood.
The babies were far too young to have played in the house next door, even if their parents visited the neighbor who owned it at the time. Their own house is still standing, and in use, though the basement cistern has long since been filled in and covered up in the renovation of the place. So I don't know WHERE paranormal investigators get any idea that (assuming that hauntings actually happen, which of course I doubt) that the little ones would be haunting a house they likely never entered.
As for Maria, she did live beyond middle age, so even if she continued to visit her cousins when they moved next door, IF her shade has joined the other "ghosts" allegedly there, it was as a full adult, not a young child haunting a nursery.
Interesting story of Lizzie's earliest American ancestor, Thomas Cornell, convicted and hanged for matricide in the burning death of his 73-year-old mother, in part due to "dream testimony" from his uncle!
http://www.history.com/news/family-t...s-mother-too-2
http://carolyncholland.wordpress.com...-murder-story/
A modern descendant of Cornell's, and thus, related to Lizzie (and apparently, several other alleged murderers), neuroscientist James Fallon made some interesting (and somewhat disturbing) discoveries when he and other members of his family had PET scans of their brains, once more reviving the nature/nurture debate, re: psychopathy.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=127888976
Last edited by Linnie; 04-07-2014 at 08:58 PM.
Some great links, here, Linnie, this last one being especially fascinating to me. Thank you! It seems like Dr. Fallon got the great benefit of an especially loving home as a child and that really points to the "nurture" side. We always wonder why some neglected and/or abused kids end up as serial killers and others are perfectly wonderful, productive people. Maybe he's on to something. Talk about releif when he tested his kids and found "normal" scans and that they didn't seem to carry the suspected gene, either.
On a Lizzie-related side note, my dream vacation would be to rent the entire Lizzie Borden B & B for a night and have my haggy friends from various places stay. I, of course, want to stay in the John V. Morse room, where Abby Borden was killed. I'd have to have a picture taken of myself lying face-down on the floor, and another one of me slumped sideways on the sofa in the parlor!
BTW, a distant cousin of the Bordens via the Cornells was, herself, brutally murdered in 1832, when Lizzie's father was 10 years old. Sarah Maria Cornell, age 30, who had a troubled life from infancy when her father had abandoned her mother and their children, ended up pregnant allegedly by a married minister of the then-fledgling (and somewhat suspect) Methodist denomination.
Sarah, after a very unsettled existence which included some petty crime, had been living and working in Fall River, but was found dead in December, 1832, on Tiverton, RI farm of one John Durfee (apparently a relative of the second Mrs. Borden, who was, herself, just a child then.) At first the death was ruled a suicide-- the wretched woman was found hanging from a stake and had left a note hinting at the (probable) father of the child. Further examination determined that Sarah was beaten in the abdomen, and strangled with a knotted noose PRIOR to hanging.
Ephraim Kingsbury Avery, the minister, was hounded from day one as evidence mounted of his relationship with Sarah, if not the killing itself. He was threatened with mob violence, as well as 2 judges who had deemed there to be insufficient evidence for his arrest. The investigation was tainted on both sides with outraged citizens on one hand and newly-minted Methodists trying to save their religion's reputation.
It didn't help that the pastor of the local Methodist church Sarah attended suddenly disowned responsibility for burying the indigent unfortunate. The Fall River Congregational church took on the task, and she was placed in the same Oak Grove cemetery as her more "illustrious" Borden relations. (The grave was once just a numbered anonymous potter's field deal, but has since gained a still-handsome, if worn, stone.)
Fall River citizens raised enough money to pursue the matter, and the beleaguered minister was dragged back from where he'd fled, New Hampshire. After a nearly month-long, acrimonious trial where the dead woman's character, as well as the Methodist church's reputation, were put through a wringer as much as the accused man's, Avery was acquitted.
There was, apparently, insufficient evidence that he was on the scene to carry out the awful crime, and, there being no paternity testing, and modesty concerns, it was never determined exactly how far along Sarah had been, which, give or take a month, might even have cleared Avery of THAT misdeed. He may have been relieved to be rid of a sticky problem thanks to Sarah's demise, but that was not the same as causing it.
In those days, there was no instant communication or quick means of travel to scoot around, commit a time-consuming murder, and then, hurry home. There may have been others with motive and, perhaps, opportunity, if even a small fraction of what was said about Sarah's alleged colorful behavior was true. Though her conversion (prior to meeting Avery) indicated she was TRYING to change, there may have been others who learned of the relationship and were offended thereby.
Though free to go, the Reverend Avery's life did not resume a smooth course or upward trajectory in the Methodist hierarchy. The church itself held a trial, where he was again acquitted (though they could not have punished him with prison or hanging anyway.) He was the target of angry mobs for years. He tried to make money on the lecture circuit with no success, and he and his family were on the move for some time, before settling in Ohio. He left the ministry (to the relief of everyone, one supposes) and ended his days as a farmer in 1869.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Maria_Cornell
http://www.nytimes.com/1986/08/10/bo...ter-do-it.html
http://www.murderbygaslight.com/2010/01/template.html
Last edited by Linnie; 04-07-2014 at 08:46 PM.
For those of you with Investigation Discovery the new season of Deadly Women is starting right now. It's 2 brand new episode. The one that just came on is apparently all about Lizzy Borden. I'm watching. Enjoy!!!!
Holy shit!!! I don't mean to double post but they showed recreations of the bodies. Dude's face was pulverized and they showed that shit lol
I think these are the actual skulls. (There are cast reproductions of them at the Borden house.)
http://dambreaker.files.wordpress.co...a0ddd1cf6a.jpg
You can see, though Abby's (on the right) sustained more blows (glancing ones, as she apparently kept getting up and attempting to resist, before she was hit one time too many), Andrew's was by far the most obviously damaged. Even though the sleeping man probably offered little or feeble resistance, Lizzie (or the "real killer", LOL) felt compelled to REALLY smash him up but good, before he had a chance to try.
I did watch this. I expected this to be the usual 16 minutes at most, the commercials, and on to the next case. This was very informative. To me it seemed that Lizzie was the only true suspect, but was surprised that one of the historians and a crime writer (not about this case) thought it wasn't her. Everyone else who had looked at the case and commented felt it was Lizzie.
Meant to add, ID Discovery devoted the whole hour to the Borden murders. Unusual for a Deadly Women show, when they mostly put several cases in the hour.
Last edited by dia846; 08-01-2014 at 11:36 PM.
Yeah I think that's the first time they dedicated an entire hour to one case. I thought I knew everything about that case but I learned stuff I never knew. Like the small animal killings Lizzie did. For those of you familiar with ID it was M William Phelps that said Lizzie was innocent. Were you as surprised as I was by the gore they showed? I was shocked they showed a recreation of the father's face.
Is this on Netflix? The show? I know it may be awhile before the new season hits but at least I'll be able to watch it at some point.
They must be death hags
https://torontosun.com/news/weird/mo...3-bdb8cddef591
London the sister wasn't home that day that it happened, I believe she was out visiting family, in Fairhaven that day, so no she couldn't have done the murders, I believe that the uncle did it, he was staying in town at the time and was very suspicious acting that day, I keep flipping back and forth that Lizzie did do it, her burning the dress because it had a few spots of red "paint" on it, got my suspicions up.
Still think it was Lizzie Borden's sister Emma
that killed them.
Carolyn(1958-2009) always in my heart.
I searched to see if anyone had posted the upcoming movie release of â??Lizzieâ?ť September 2018, but couldnâ??t find it on this thread...figure itâ??s relevant. Looks eerie and well produced.
The 2 1/2 minute trailer on YouTube:
https://youtu.be/ylfEsqKDgKI
"We've had threads about guys fucking picnic tables, animals and dead bodies. Third boob ain't going to stop a damn thing." - cleanskull
It looks like it might be good.
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