oh that's just WONDERFUL!! thank youOriginally Posted by FloridaDeathHag
another classic scene
oh that's just WONDERFUL!! thank you
"The sword. . . cuts both ways."
(Great preceding stuff about Pepsi, anyone recall it?)
How about a remake of "Mommie" starring Madonna and Lourdes Leon....
why sorry? I'd LOVE to be related to Joan...lucky, lucky Sam!I'm sorry you had such a crazy relative.
I saw the movie years ago and have never read the book. Is the book better than the movie?
That book is her bread & butter and she's going to milk it for every last dime 'till the day she takes her last miserable breath!
I thought the book was great and read it several times.
The movie is awesome too...
IMO, the 20th annivesary with well worth reading because it has a lot more material in it than the original, and in my opinion, it is not flattering of Christina. It is her original draft with significant sections the editors removed from the original release in 1978. It's more adult relations, letters from Joan from college and beyond (which reflect a mother and a daughter really trying to and actually getting along) and A LOT of Christina whining about lack of funds in her adult life. She comes off spoiled and money-hungry in the unedited version. There are many eyewitness accounts in the 20th anniversary edition, I'm not really concerned with reading any more. She obviously doesn't have witnesses to the more serious allegations of attempted murder, etc., just people who ran into Joan in a bad mood when something was going on with Christina. I do feel there is so much more to this story between the two women, but I guess no one else knows. Anyway, the 20th anniversary is worth it, but I don't see how she could really add any more "good parts," the whole topic is getting a little old to be honest.
I read somewhere Christina's second husband either took her to the cleaners in a divorce or basically took all her money after stroke following the film version of Mommie Dearest, so I'm thinking she has to keep rehashing this book and "saga" because she lost all her money from the original sensation, much like BD did in the 1987 stock market crash, though neither Christina nor BD ever struck me as real bright. Joan and Bette could earn huge sums of money, even when they were old, every few years by making even crap pictures, but I believe their daughters learned the hard way they had only one chance at big money and when it was gone, it was gone. After the initial sensation, their ability to earn money was quite diminished.
It always pains me a great deal that today, Joan Crawford is primarily remembered as a abusive mother instead of a wonderful actress with a fine body of work (we'll forget Trog, etc;!) very sad.....
So very true Rosa.
She was an incredible professional and a real trooper. Her movies just seem to get better with time, not fade into the cobwebs like so many "old" films. Joan's pictures just seem more vibrant, more interesting every time I watch them (which is fairly often).
Renowned Death Hag
You Know What Is Said About Ill Gotten Gain . . . .
KELT' HOME FOR WAYWARD YOUTH-
Helping Young Men To Turn Around For Over Twenty Years !
Holy crap!!!!! that IS her!!!! OMG I never noticed that, I still watch Roseanne and I know just who you are talking about!!! OMG I never EVER would have put that together but now that I see... It is TOTALLY her! WOW how funny, I remember she played the next door neighbor and she was the older, sweeter and shy one out of the 2 sisters.
Renowned Death Hag
Me too!
The eyebrows frighten me
I was reading an article about Martha Stewart just now, and was thinking....there's something a teeny bit Joan/Christina/Mildred/Veda about her and her daughter alexis....no?
Member
Oh I'd say there's more than a teeny bit of that in there.
.
Christina Crawford wouldn't make a pimple on Veda Pierce's ass!
Season's Greetings everyone! (please watch this, it's hysterical!)
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf8jid4EIlU
Oh, man, that is priceless!! All the faces are funny but there's something about "Baby Jane" that makes me lose it! LOL
Thanks...this is great!!
I know what you mean! but Joan/Faye's "NO WIRE HANGERS!!!" & "HOW DARE YOU EMBARRASS ME IN FRONT OF A REPORTER/WHY CAN'T YOU GIVE ME THE RESPECT YOU WOULD GIVE ANY STRANGER ON THE STREET!!!!" faces has me in stitches too - I must have played this over fifty times already today!
Renowned Death Hag
I love Joan Crawford! Loved Mommy Dearest!
"I guess every form of refuge has its price"...
Her appearance in the 1950s and 60s frightened me as a child. There was something about those hairy, jet black eyebrows and the slash of red lipstick across her face that gave me the willies.
For some reason I will always remember her as looking exactly like the ax-wielding crone she portrayed in "Strait Jacket".
I know what you mean - I ADORE Joan but I thought the look she cultivated after the early 50's was horrendous. She almost became very masculine in appearance. Prior to that, particularly in the 30's she was gorgeous.
I believe Christina Crawford was telling her version of what she remembers
of living with Joan Crawford.
Also let's not forget that Christina was left out of Joan's will and I believe that set her off.
Her adopted brother never wrote a word about his childhood to my knowledge, I understand that he too was left out of her will.
Helen Hayes and others knew about the abuse but did nothing about it.
I find that strange. Back in the 50's most people minded their own
business.
Joan Crawford was an absolute "clean freak". I have seen photos of
her in her kitchen after a party with a mop in her hand.
I believe this cleanliness fetish may have been responsible for her abuse of her children.
Christine as she became older started to exert her opinion and I believe
this set Joan off!
I think Joan Crawford was a handful with anyone living with her.
I probably could have gotten along with her because I'm the type
that has friends no one likes or can get along with!
I do believe that Joan Crawford died a miserable woman poor thing.
I' m sorry but I read this and I could not let another response like pass by without commenting on it. Florida, I am not picking on you or wanting to start an argument. I just want to bring up a point maybe two.
I don't care how bad Christina was as a child. Joan was the mother and adult in the relationship. Joan needed to be mature, caring and loving one. But, Joan chose to be a boozer. She chose to be an adulterer with a revolving door of men. That's putting it nicely. Joan did this in front of her children like it was normal. She made them call all her boyfriends "uncle." She made her children call her husbands "Daddy." That is just slimy and wrong.
Being sent to boarding school, because your mother is afraid your are learning what about her idiosyncrasies. Joan would never live it down if it got out into the scandal sheets. What about Christina getting caught necking with a boy alone on a bed. She was only doing what she learned at home. But Christina paid price with a few year in a catholic nunnery. Would you like to spend your teenage years in a catholic nunnery with no contact with the outside world Florida?
Your statement "Joan got physical with her a handful of times and once almost killed her. Yes, that's awful but I don't think Joan deserves to be branded as a child abuser over it either."
What is your definition of abuse? If Joan did 1/4 of things she did to those children then and turn around in 2009; she would be doing some serious time in prison. No jokeI am surprised Joan's children were functionally normal contributing human beings in society despite all of what they been through.
Last edited by SweetWickedHellKatEvil; 02-14-2009 at 05:26 PM.
Guest
Christina Crawford was a great writer of FICTION!
If Joan had done 1/100 of the things that ungrateful little bitch said she did then it would have been ALL OVER the paper's at the time.
Joan should have left that ungrateful little bitch/bastard child at the orphanage where she could have been adopted by a non descript family who would have sent her to a reform school where she belonged!
After a few years in prison where her parentage apparently bred her to belong she would be an ex con today!
You know the old saying
"There's always three sides to a story, his, hers and the truth"
I think that applies here. The truth is probably somewhere in between.
Renowned Death Hag
Christina Crawford was a great writer of FICTION!
If Joan had done 1/100 of the things that ungrateful little bitch said she did then it would have been ALL OVER the paper's at the time.
Joan should have left that ungrateful little bitch/bastard child at the orphanage where she could have been adopted by a non descript family who would have sent her to a reform school where she belonged!
After a few years in prison where her parentage apparently bred her to belong she would be an ex con today!
Not so; many who knew her witnessed CRAWFORD at her worst but turned a blind eye. You're also talking about an era in which they had 'protectors' who did their jobs very well. GABLE got away with a murder, LORETTA YOUNG successfully hid a pregnancy & managed a phony adoption of her biological child, lots of 'stage mothers' who would be charged with child endangerment these days got away with extreme abuse of their children, rapes by famous actors were covered up and on & on. It was a different era; you can't judge 1940s & 50s America by 21st century standards.
KELT' HOME FOR WAYWARD YOUTH-
Helping Young Men To Turn Around For Over Twenty Years !
Kelt, youve nailed it again... IMHO...
Very true KELT, but don't you think it would have been TALKED about?
I think Christina wrote the book for the money, Joan cut her out of the will and she was mad that's all.
I agree. There were quite a few famous people that had nothing to gain that said they saw Joan do things that Christina has alleged. Why didn't it come out in the press? Well like Kelt says they had fixers. They were paid to make sure this crap didn't get out. Newspapers and Magazines of the day were paid to write good stories on the stars. Hell, many in the press knew about the Kennedy's and their life of sex/ parties/drugs and never breathed a word of it.
Abuse is abuse is abuse. Joan was a person who abused those around her.
Sure Christina made money off of the book. I believe for her it was not only about the money but the pay back as well. I love Joanie. Her movies were great. Her story even better. But come on... she was a bitch that adopted children for the good press, and then didn't want to deal with them. She also happened to be crazy. You can't say that the only villain here is Christina.
Ka-ching! I believe this too. And when money is involved...all bets are off.
i agree that somewhere in the middle is probably the whole truth..but even if she made money off the book sure doesnt mean that some sort of abuse didnt happen...it really isnt all that much of stretch..im a big joan fan but ive never read anywhere that she was considered mother of the year by those around her..unless it was someone directly denying the book
Senior Death Hag
Actually, Joan cut Christina (and Christopher) out of her will because she knew Christina was planning on writing a book and releasing it after her death. I don't know how she found out, but she knew.
I think the book and subsequent movie were great, but probably works of fiction with a bit of reality stuck in. I always have a problem believing any tell-all released after the subject's death. They're great to read, but it's like, if you have something to say and it's true, you're really not going to worry about pissing the person off. I know I wouldn't care less.
One of the tell-alls I don't believe that was released when the person was still alive was Bette Davis' daughter's crapfest. It think that was a case of greed and anger that Davis didn't embrace her daughter's faith.
"You live alone, creating your life as you go." - Edie Sedgwick
I think Joan Crawford was mentally unstable to begin with. I also think that Christina Crawford was a difficult child. There are several 'tells' in the book and all other accounts that support both of these theories. A lot of the 'eye witness' accounts should be taken with a grain of salt too. Helen Hayes claims to have seen the abuse soon after her own daughter died, while others that were with Hayes and Crawford at the time say Christina was acting like a brat, and that she was disciplined harshly, but not inappropriately. It's possible that Hayes recollection was colored by Mary's death. June Allyson was at the time a very bitter recovering alcoholic, who's marriage to Dick Powell, which was stormy at best, had once been threatened by a flirtation between Powell and Crawford. Allyson also had to fight to keep her children, because her mothr and mother in law felt she wasn't fit to be a mother.
Charlotte Chandler's bio of Crawford is very forthright about Crawford's mental issues. She most definitely was obsessive-compulsive, and her home life when she was young was far from perfect. Her brother was favored, even though he was lazy and cruel, and he treated Joan like dirt, When she got to Hollywood, the discipline of the studio system most likely messed with her head even more. She probably wasn't the best person to be raising children.
Christopher and Christina were by most all accounts difficult children. Like Gary Crosby, were molly coddled and given every thing from the moment they arrived. They grew up with a sense of entitlement, and a great deal of resentment towards their parents. If either had any sort of learning disability or behavior disorder, Joan would not have been able to handle it well.
In the end, we'll never know for sure, but I think it's telling that Christina chose to write a book and hawk it all over the country. If 50% is true, I'd be surprised, although I will admit that childhood probably wasn't perfect for those kids.
Read the Charlotte Chandler bio, It's good.
Death Hag of Legend
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
Never forget that this woman was BEAUTIFUL and talented!
HOLY COW!
Look at that bod! Where is that dress today? I want it!
I've always loved that photo...wowie wow WOW!!!
WHERE did you find this? It's wonderful! I want my own Baby Jane diorama!
I don't believe that Joanie was a child abuser...She disciplined her children in a way that would be considered extreme by today's standards but not in the 40s...I think the most outrageous scenes in the movie/book were either made-up or embellished considerably. Christina was pissed at being left out of the will and this was her "revenge" on Joan (Joan knew that CC was writing a tell-all book about her, hence disinheriting her) that said, I DO love the Mommie Dearest movie - as a fiction piece...it's a guilty pleasure of mine.
Having said that, it saddens me considerably that today JC is primarily remembered as a child abuser (thanks to MD) rather than her stellar film career (we'll overlook TROG, BERSERK & STRAIT-JACKET)
Ironically TROG is on TCM UK on Sunday night (even more ironically it's on the same time as the Oscars haha) I've never seen this cinematic classic as it's quite difficult to obtain here...guess who'll be sky plussing it..can't wait!
Oh Sam..as a life-long adorer of Joan I've never see this absolutely gorgeous picture...I'm guessing that she has a bodystocking on underneath thus adding to the allusion that she's nude under that diaphanous gown...pretty risque for back then!
She was a crude slut. I love those chicks.
I don't think Joan was mother of the year, but I don't think she was as horrible as CC claimed. I think CC was a spoiled, headstrong brat and Joan didn't have the qualities to handle that sort of person. She handled it the way she knew and if they had the standards they have now, she more than likely wouldn't have done the things she did. I mean.....c'mon. What kind of person would write a book like that about their mother? If SHE loved her mother even just a smidgeon, she wouldn't have set out to destroy her. I'm siding with Joan on this one, but not condoning it. CC is the bitch here and she proved it by writing the book. I would cut her out of the will, too.
Im trying to think of the dynamics here. I think that after what CC had been through and JC and CC being an adult by the time of JC s illness that there never was any type of closure on either part as far as the past was concerned. There was an underlying animosity on both parts and CC must have made threats although if I was an heir I would have tried to keep the asskissing at a reasonable level so as to stay in grace but I believe that CC was way past any asskissing and it was on and had been on between them for a long time. Pride and ego often make people shoot themselves in the foot sometimes. CC could have been the phony and got the inheritance and the estate (or would she?) or said fuck it. She could have played it both ways and wound up twice as wealthy. We werent there and as many have written about the 3 sides of the truth....
It's very refreshing I must say that folks on this thread are at least keeping an open mind about what may or may not happened at Joan's Art Deco palace on Bristol Avenue.
I wish there could be reappraisal of the facts, but most of the main witnesses are dead now...it would be wonderful if Joan's image could be rehabilitated.
Lucky you! I just checked TCM's abyssmal website schedule and they're not showing it here...
Joan Crawford Mega Mix
http://www.dan-o-ramaproductions.com/club_10b.html
THANKS! I loved that!
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
