What about older famous and infamous deaths?

[cleanskull]

First post so here goes.......I was wondering if anyone else gets interested in older famous and infamous deaths.Over the last few years I have traveled around Oklahoma and surounding states looking up graves of folks from western days and deppression-era outlaws.such as around here Ma Barker and sons,Pretty Boy Floyd,Belle Starr etc.Lot of famous Native Americans also.This bit probably belongs in another thread but the super-natural aspect of some of these sad and violent deaths can be spooky.Fort Reno at 0200 on a moonless night will scare the spit out of most anyone.Just a curious deathhag in the Heartland.

[knothere]

What happens in Ft Reno that scares the spit?

[joplinfrk]

Yeah.....I'd like to have the spit scared out of me! Welcome to the board!

[cleanskull]

Fort reno was est.1874.Was used as a prison/prison hospital during the "pacification" of the Cheyanne-Arapaho indian wars of the late 1800's.Was also used as a POW camp during WWll.68 german and 8 italian are interred there.Lots of violent and unhappy deaths make for some restless spirits.

[Lilepad336]

I know what you mean about restless spirits. Have you ever been to Little Big Horn? Now that has some spirits.

Nice to see another mid-western here.

[firegilnotguns]

My husband and I went to Kilmainham Gaol in Dublin a few years ago and the tour in front of us was lagging behind so they took us to see the execution cell while we waited for them to get ahead...this isn't normally part of the tour and while the whole gaol certainly felt eerie, the execution cell definitely was the creepiest. I wasn't expecting to feel that way, but man, very weird.

[GODDESS6]

I know what you mean about restless spirits. Have you ever been to Little Big Horn? Now that has some spirits.

Nice to see another mid-western here.

nebraska here too!!!~

[Ms. K]

My husband and I went to Kilmainham Gaol in Dublin a few years ago and the tour in front of us was lagging behind so they took us to see the execution cell while we waited for them to get ahead...this isn't normally part of the tour and while the whole gaol certainly felt eerie, the execution cell definitely was the creepiest. I wasn't expecting to feel that way, but man, very weird.

I got to visit Eastern State Penitentiary in Philadelphia this summer.

It feels oppressive driving up to it, and it's oddly peaceful in the yard. But, there are certain cells that I couldn't walk into (some of them are open for you to walk in), because the energy was actively making itself known and wanted you OUT.

I wonder if anyone else has experiences with former jails/prisons/penitentiaries, and if all of them feel that way?

[ST Moron]

First post so here goes.......I was wondering if anyone else gets interested in older famous and infamous deaths.Over the last few years I have traveled around Oklahoma and surounding states looking up graves of folks from western days and deppression-era outlaws.such as around here Ma Barker and sons,Pretty Boy Floyd,Belle Starr etc.

Bonnie and Clyde have always held a certain fascination for me.

I guess it's a combination of them dying so young...and the fact that the forces of "law and order" didn't show them much mercy when they caught up with them: they simply gunned them down (and then some).

Well that, and the fact that Clyde Barrow's weapon of choice was the .50 caliber BAR:

http://texashideout.tripod.com/guns.html

...which, believe me, makes you an extremely tough person just for handling the damn thing.

I know that the "gangstas" of today are supposed to be "tough," but compared to those old-time gangsters...I wonder.

At any rate, I believe Bonnie and Clyde are both buried in Dallas (though, sadly, not together, but in separate cemeteries).

[knothere]

We have our beloved Black Donnellys in Southern Ontario Canada. People still don't wanna talk about it. Funding is in the process of gettin a Museum, the people of Lucan stopped fighting it.......... finnally.
anyways the official web addy is
http://www.donnellys.com/

[cleanskull]

I have been down to dallas for bonnie and clydes graves.bonnie is in a nice cemetery by some of her family.Clydes is in a smaller worn out cemetery in a rougher part of dallas,does not hurt to be packing your own self when there.Shot down in a cowardly ambush they were but thats the "man" for ya.

[Boxofpandoraz]

I was a rather strange child...Most kids wanted to watch cartoons and read kid's books. I had my nose in books about Billy the Kid.

[HippieMama]

I'm a little confused . . . why is everyone surprised that they were gunned down? Not that they should have been, but these were hardened criminals who were responsible for lots of murders along with other crimes. They were Most Wanted everywhere! That is simply how the law worked back then . . . if you really feel like it was such a travesty that they were killed, do you believe that other people who were caught for similar crimes and put in jail should still be alive?
Two sides to every coin . . .
Now Dillinger, THAT was an ambush.

[Aries65]

I got to visit Eastern State Penitentiary in Philadelphia this summer.

It feels oppressive driving up to it, and it's oddly peaceful in the yard. But, there are certain cells that I couldn't walk into (some of them are open for you to walk in), because the energy was actively making itself known and wanted you OUT.

I wonder if anyone else has experiences with former jails/prisons/penitentiaries, and if all of them feel that way?

That's where Ghost Hunters went on one of their episodes. That was pretty creepy!

Didn't they film Shawshank Redemption there, or was that another prison I'm thinking of?

[Ms. K]

That's where Ghost Hunters went on one of their episodes. That was pretty creepy!

Didn't they film Shawshank Redemption there, or was that another prison I'm thinking of?

No, not Shawshank Redemption, but it's one of the locations for Twelve Monkeys.

And the place IS creepy. The air surrounding it is desperation. And if the Ghost Hunters went there, I have GOT to see that episode!

[b57hrle]

First post so here goes.......I was wondering if anyone else gets interested in older famous and infamous deaths.Over the last few years I have traveled around Oklahoma and surounding states looking up graves of folks from western days and deppression-era outlaws.such as around here Ma Barker and sons,Pretty Boy Floyd,Belle Starr etc.Lot of famous Native Americans also.This bit probably belongs in another thread but the super-natural aspect of some of these sad and violent deaths can be spooky.Fort Reno at 0200 on a moonless night will scare the spit out of most anyone.Just a curious deathhag in the Heartland.

Welcome to the forum!! I love history and spend lots of time in cemeteries.. being originally from PA, my old stomping grounds were Gettysburg, Chambersburg PA, Mercersburg PA, Antietam MD, Harpers Ferry WV... Lots of violent deaths all around..

I've been to the Alamo, Springfield IL, and lots of places in between with a long list of more to see... as long as man treats each other as badly as they do, they'll always be a place for us Death Hags!!

[Fool Moon]

What About Older Deaths?

Cain was framed.

[keef]

Cain was framed.

<snigger>

K.

[ST Moron]

I'm a little confused . . . why is everyone surprised that they were gunned down? Not that they should have been, but these were hardened criminals who were responsible for lots of murders along with other crimes. They were Most Wanted everywhere!

Sorry, but that isn't true: Bonnie Parker wasn't wanted for any capital crimes (i.e. crimes that carried the death penalty, such as murder) when she was shot to death.

Even more basic, outside of that one famous photo that shows her "getting the drop" on Clyde, she was never seen (or charged with) wielding a handgun or rifle during the commission of a crime by any member of law enforcement.

Never.

And what's worse: the members of the posse immediately lied their asses off and claimed that Bonnie Parker was wanted for capital crimes. This was completely untrue and they knew it.

Of course, if they hadn't lied, they would have looked bad, gunning down a woman like that. And anyone who has ever spent time dealing with so-called "authority figures" knows that the one unpardonable sin for such people is looking bad.

That is simply how the law worked back then . . .

The ambush of Bonnie and Clyde is exactly how the law is not supposed to work.

I understand perfectly that Clyde Barrow was a bad man. But be that as it may, he still deserved an opportunity to surrender. Without affording a criminal that opportunity, and simply opening fire without warning, those posse members were no better than the criminals they were chasing.

if you really feel like it was such a travesty that they were killed, do you believe that other people who were caught for similar crimes and put in jail should still be alive?

With all due respect, you're comparing apples and oranges here.

The fact that the people you refer to were given a chance to survive and go to jail makes a big difference.

For all we know, Clyde Barker might well have thrown his hands up when he saw seven people leveling guns at him.

But we'll never know, will we, because he was gunned down without warning.

And if the law behaves like that, how, then, do we tell the good guys from the bad?

Two sides to every coin . . .

Even a casual inspection of the Bonnie and Clyde story will reveal that there was no justification for shooting Bonnie Parker. It happened simply because the posse members knew they could get away with it: history is, let's face it, written by the victors, not the vanquished (or murdered).

Now Dillinger, THAT was an ambush.

Dillinger was a hard guy to empathize with. Bonnie Parker has my sympathy because she did nothing to deserve being shot to death, that's all.

[Darrianne]

We have our beloved Black Donnellys in Southern Ontario Canada. People still don't wanna talk about it. Funding is in the process of gettin a Museum, the people of Lucan stopped fighting it.......... finnally.
anyways the official web addy is
http://www.donnellys.com/

Wow, that is a really informative site. Thanks for sharing that. I think I first read about this at Crime Library

[John Trim]

I got to visit Eastern State Penitentiary in Philadelphia this summer.

It feels oppressive driving up to it, and it's oddly peaceful in the yard. But, there are certain cells that I couldn't walk into (some of them are open for you to walk in), because the energy was actively making itself known and wanted you OUT.

I wonder if anyone else has experiences with former jails/prisons/penitentiaries, and if all of them feel that way?

I live in The San Francisco Bay Area in Ca. Though I've never been there myself, I've talk to people who have visited Alcatraz and reported different things they felt in some of the rooms and buildings there. They talk about cold spots in the cell block and uneasy feelings in other parts of the prison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcatraz

[ComputerGuy]

Here's the Bonnie and Clyde Museum

http://www.roadsideamerica.com/sights/sightstory.php?tip_AttrId=%3D10864

[candleinthewind]

How about Lizzie Borden? She definitely did it. Current theory is that she was sexually abused and got fed up. The house where she killed her parents is now a bed and breakfast. She got off, inherited her parents money and lived a quiet life in a nearby town.

[BeeCee]

Cain was framed.

LOL...I've always had a lot of sympathy for the brother of the prodigal son too. Hee hee.

Speaking of older deaths and scary places...I once had the opportunity to do a ghost tour of underground Edinburgh, Scotland. Very creepy but, unfortunately didn't see or hear a thing. The thought of being there alone is pretty mind numbing though.

[monhol]

Sorry, but that isn't true: Bonnie Parker wasn't wanted for any capital crimes (i.e. crimes that carried the death penalty, such as murder) when she was shot to death.

Even more basic, outside of that one famous photo that shows her "getting the drop" on Clyde, she was never seen (or charged with) wielding a handgun or rifle during the commission of a crime by any member of law enforcement.

Never.

And what's worse: the members of the posse immediately lied their asses off and claimed that Bonnie Parker was wanted for capital crimes. This was completely untrue and they knew it.

Of course, if they hadn't lied, they would have looked bad, gunning down a woman like that. And anyone who has ever spent time dealing with so-called "authority figures" knows that the one unpardonable sin for such people is looking bad.



The ambush of Bonnie and Clyde is exactly how the law is not supposed to work.

I understand perfectly that Clyde Barrow was a bad man. But be that as it may, he still deserved an opportunity to surrender. Without affording a criminal that opportunity, and simply opening fire without warning, those posse members were no better than the criminals they were chasing.



With all due respect, you're comparing apples and oranges here.

The fact that the people you refer to were given a chance to survive and go to jail makes a big difference.

For all we know, Clyde Barker might well have thrown his hands up when he saw seven people leveling guns at him.

But we'll never know, will we, because he was gunned down without warning.

And if the law behaves like that, how, then, do we tell the good guys from the bad?



Even a casual inspection of the Bonnie and Clyde story will reveal that there was no justification for shooting Bonnie Parker. It happened simply because the posse members knew they could get away with it: history is, let's face it, written by the victors, not the vanquished (or murdered).



Dillinger was a hard guy to empathize with. Bonnie Parker has my sympathy because she did nothing to deserve being shot to death, that's all.

wasn't he shot 100 times by 5-O(the police) that i feel was just as wrong as the bonnie and clyde thing.

[motherogod]

I live in The San Francisco Bay Area in Ca. Though I've never been there myself, I've talk to people who have visited Alcatraz and reported different things they felt in some of the rooms and buildings there. They talk about cold spots in the cell block and uneasy feelings in other parts of the prison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcatraz

NO DOUBT! Even though we toured Alcatraz with about 500 other people, it still felt so lonely and foreboding. Many times I got chills and had to turn my back to a wall or something. Maybe haunted, or maybe I'm just batshit crazy.

Either way it is one of MY seven wonders of the world! Visit when you can!

[motherogod]

First post so here goes.......I was wondering if anyone else gets interested in older famous and infamous deaths.Over the last few years I have traveled around Oklahoma and surounding states looking up graves of folks from western days and deppression-era outlaws.such as around here Ma Barker and sons,Pretty Boy Floyd,Belle Starr etc.Lot of famous Native Americans also.This bit probably belongs in another thread but the super-natural aspect of some of these sad and violent deaths can be spooky.Fort Reno at 0200 on a moonless night will scare the spit out of most anyone.Just a curious deathhag in the Heartland.

Hooray, another Okie death hag! We can have a convention now! How about we meet at Imo Cemetery just west of Enid... white folks buried on top of an indian burial ground. Seriously scary as what I imagine hell is!

[Boxofpandoraz]

ST Moron...Fascinating post. And exactly how I would have put it if I were asked.

Bonnie was "guilty by association". I have always thought that the entire Bonnie and Clyde ambush was put into action to put the "lawmen" who did it into some kind of hero status.

Wonderful...they "got the bad guy". But they also killed a woman who had never actually perpetrated a crime.

[Jack-O-Lantern]

I live in The San Francisco Bay Area in Ca. Though I've never been there myself, I've talk to people who have visited Alcatraz and reported different things they felt in some of the rooms and buildings there. They talk about cold spots in the cell block and uneasy feelings in other parts of the prison.

It's true, though I don't believe in ghosts, there IS some kind of residual energy going on at Alcatraz (or, at least there WAS until about 3 trillion people/tourists were unleashed on the poor little island over the last couple of decades).

20+ years ago, it was much less a tourist attraction than it is now and you could actually get out there on a tour pretty much by yourself, especially on weekdays or when cold/raining. At that time, it was quite normal to feel an overwhelming sense of despair and uneasiness when walking down the main prison area, in the dining area, in the solitary confinement cells, and in the yards. It was (and still is) an extremely depressing place, and the weight of it lasts for days following a visit.

In recent years, however, I've noticed that there are just too many people to get a feeling of anything but frustration when you're there...whatever was there seems to have been swept away long ago by the crowds.

[Ruffian]

ST Moron...Fascinating post. And exactly how I would have put it if I were asked.

Bonnie was "guilty by association". I have always thought that the entire Bonnie and Clyde ambush was put into action to put the "lawmen" who did it into some kind of hero status.

Wonderful...they "got the bad guy". But they also killed a woman who had never actually perpetrated a crime.

Not that the ambush was right, of course, but I wouldn't say Bonnie never actually perpetrated a crime. She loaded the guns; the helped them hide out; she went into the places they robbed; she did nothing when they kidnapped people........I think these are considered crimes, and that's the very least of what she did. She may or may not have shot someone, but she did commit crimes.

[SomeChick]

Bump.

[tarsier]

No, not Shawshank Redemption, but it's one of the locations for Twelve Monkeys.

And the place IS creepy. The air surrounding it is desperation. And if the Ghost Hunters went there, I have GOT to see that episode!

Nope, Shawshank Redemption shot in Ohio at Marion State prison with court house scenes shot in Upper Sandusky. Haven't been to Marion since they closed it my Brother was held there among others back when I was in grade school. I did go to the place where the prison lumber mill scenes were shot for lunch one day while working in Upper.

[Lout_Rampage]

Not that the ambush was right, of course, but I wouldn't say Bonnie never actually perpetrated a crime. She loaded the guns; the helped them hide out; she went into the places they robbed; she did nothing when they kidnapped people........I think these are considered crimes, and that's the very least of what she did. She may or may not have shot someone, but she did commit crimes.

My thoughts exactly. Bonnie was most definitely "on board". Also, they weren't given the opportunity to surrender, because everyone knew that they had no intention of ever surrendering. They had already had shoot outs with police, and they knew they would eventually be on the losing side of one. I love Bonnie and Clyde, and I find it sad that they were killed, but I can't say that I don't understand it.

[JimC]

They chose a life of crime; they got dealt with by the "opposition".

Was it justified?

Apparently, in the minds of the authorities it was.

Would it be justifiable today?

WhoTF can say.

Today, they would more likely have driven over damaging treadles to flatten their tires, and then been hit with pepper spray and tazers to disable them.
Then, they would be hauled into court where they would counter-sue for violations of rights and deprivation of justice, their own victims would have no voice, because they were "prejudiced", it would end up in a higher court, which would rule that they were entitled to millions of dollars of tax payers' money to offset the injustice delivered to people who were guilty of nothing more than robbing and stealing from honest citizens.

Shoot them, for Gods' sake...

[okidoll]

Bonnie Parker was just as guilty as any other person that runs with people that murder, rob, etc. She knew it was going on and benefited from it. That said, they probably should had given them a chance to surrender, but I wasn't there.

I haven't ever been to this thread before. This is interesting.

[SomeChick]

I haven't ever been to this thread before. This is interesting.

It is!

And it's got cleanskull's first post too. Memmmmrieeees.

[cleanskull]

It is!

And it's got cleanskull's first post too. Memmmmrieeees.

Now I feel old. Ihad forgotten this one. Griping about sumpin as usual. (sigh)

[Nessa]

Mel, do you remember hearing anything about some murders on a reservation in Oklahoma? They involved disembowelment and I think the suspect claimed to have been possessed or something at the time of the killings. BF mentioned it but that's all he could remember, and I can't find squat.

[Rich]

Bonnie and Clyde have always held a certain fascination for me.

I guess it's a combination of them dying so young...and the fact that the forces of "law and order" didn't show them much mercy when they caught up with them: they simply gunned them down (and then some).

Well that, and the fact that Clyde Barrow's weapon of choice was the .50 caliber BAR:

http://texashideout.tripod.com/guns.html

...which, believe me, makes you an extremely tough person just for handling the damn thing.

I know that the "gangstas" of today are supposed to be "tough," but compared to those old-time gangsters...I wonder.

At any rate, I believe Bonnie and Clyde are both buried in Dallas (though, sadly, not together, but in separate cemeteries).

Actually, I would be more interested in the deaths of some of the oldtime lawmen, such as Frank Hamer, Bill Tilghman, Jelly Bryce, et al. Bonnie and Clyde were murderous punks, IMHO, and got exactly what they deserved. And by the way, a BAR is 30-06, not 50 caliber. You couldn't manage a full auto fifty in a hand held weapon. It's not physically possible.

[cleanskull]

Mel, do you remember hearing anything about some murders on a reservation in Oklahoma? They involved disembowelment and I think the suspect claimed to have been possessed or something at the time of the killings. BF mentioned it but that's all he could remember, and I can't find squat.

It sorta sounds familar but at my age most things do. I will try some digging around.

[neilmpenny]

Skull's first thread. My my my..... Wonder what mine was?

[cleanskull]

Skull's first thread. My my my..... Wonder what mine was?

Sandra Bullock, you horndog.

[Flmlvr]

First post so here goes.......I was wondering if anyone else gets interested in older famous and infamous deaths.Over the last few years I have traveled around Oklahoma and surounding states looking up graves of folks from western days and deppression-era outlaws.such as around here Ma Barker and sons,Pretty Boy Floyd,Belle Starr etc.Lot of famous Native Americans also.This bit probably belongs in another thread but the super-natural aspect of some of these sad and violent deaths can be spooky.Fort Reno at 0200 on a moonless night will scare the spit out of most anyone.Just a curious deathhag in the Heartland.

Welcome to the board!!! My story....

Went back to Minnesota for a 2005 family reunion - my first time back there in 35 years (I was a teenager the last time I visited). One of the things we did that day was take a bus tour around the parts where our ancestors were from, and one of the stops was a big open field where we were told was once a Native American settlement. Talk about energy. I felt an immediate sense of sadness - and heard MUCH crying and wailing, leaving me no doubt whatsoever what took place there. I couldn't tell you the year or if there is any record of it, but I can tell you, a mass slaughter took place there, and there are restless spirits there......boy, I'll never forget it........