A Drowning is something I have directly been affected by, due to recent circumstances, in its all encompassing mysteriousness (as you know Lisa)!
Not being able to swim and approaching water is not something I can fathom! But we are mortals and make mistakes!
Wagners account sounds like emotions ran high and Natalie after a few? drinks got angry or defiant and decided to act on her own emotions! His account wasnt going to change anything only publicity!
If all he did wrong was have an argument with his wife over a emotional infidelity why should that be aired at the time, it would only infuse hysteria in impulsive fans who wouldnt see them as real people with real lives anyway!
Even if we can swim the water is a powerful force of nature and unpredictable!
Im haunted by dreams of drowning lately after my ex work friend died so innocently in an act of kindness, selflessness and action!
I did wake up freezing a few nights after his death and have found a few of my ex workmates have experienced the same thing! Australia is a hot place but in winter we do experience low degrees and it was a cold Saturday late arvo! We swim from babies, have pools and are surrounded by water! But its also wild water and rips and danger! My beautiful friend just made a bad judgement of bodily strength and the water!
Relative innocent actions of innocuous reaction!
It was a cold July day here when my friend went into the water to get a childs ball, but I dont think that killed him! The water,sudden unexpected depth, his panic and being unable to swim to the surface may have! But I dont really know! Others went in after him and were able to stay in the water trying to find him!
I hear people who cannot swim sink because they dont know what to do! I dont know, the questions are immense and sometimes we make mistakes! And damn then the loved ones left behind have so much to deal with! There is no time limit on dealing with this stuff or an expiry date in defence of Wagner!
Last edited by cherryghost; 08-17-2008 at 02:03 AM.
She caught them having sex and stomped off in a big hissy fit. There was an article in Vanity Fair and one of the crew swears he heard Wagner and Walken mocking her from the deck (not knowing she was drowning) about being such a drama queen. Also not drunk? It is well known she was so drunk in a restaurant that afternoon and throwing herself at Walken they all had to leave. I don't think there was any murder but the truth has never been told. She was a desperate, needy over 40 actress married to a homosexual which she was well aware of. Booze did her in.
Also I thought there was evidence that she had tried to climb back into the dinghy but kept slipping.
I love Vanity Fair but like any magazine I dont believe all I read! Bugger I love Vanity Fair but know it has an agenda like all high profile magazines and you cant believe all you read! Sometimes I think Vanity Fair is just a beautiful expose of everything .....be it the good the bad or the ugly! But I cant stop reading it! Its always so well written!
Some amazing people have forensic science for cause of death studied, work on and practice it almost an art form in my HOP! Degrees of a few may make a difference and other factors need to be ruled in!
They are dealing with the facts or as close as we can get to it! They relay it to us on this forum with total integrity and check their facts very closely!
Mach2 what is your factual experience theory and basis aside from a very lucky escape?
Only a Kindly and curious meaning to a question and query here!
I wish my friend were as lucky as you were, you were saved possibly due to certain circumstances Lisa could easily explain! Give her a go!
Last edited by cherryghost; 08-17-2008 at 03:02 AM.
I do agree with you on the validity and sensationalism of magazine articles BUT it is very strange how quickly this man's comments were buried. I believe it was the lead fo a book. Of course it was all countered with he had drug problems in the past blah blah....I tend to believe it.
from the faq
6) Help keep the forum organized for all users
A) Before posting a new topic, use the Search feature, found at the top of every page, to see if a similar topic has already been posted. If there is already a thread about the person or thing you want to post about, do not post another one. Even if you are talking about a new facet of a case, you are still talking about the same case, so keep it in one thread.
Jefe were the comments buried or never really exposed? Did J R have a drug problem!
Im a bit of a Chris Walken fan cus I think he was very on the edge, quite charismatic especially in Deer hunter and very gorgous at that time!
It doesnt suprise me they would have had an attraction
I recall hearing that the dinghy had come untied and was slapping against the side of the boat; that she was trying to tie it back up.
With all the alcohol involved, I have to believe that it was a accident. RJ has had decades to go over that day again and again in his mind. He admits to his feelings of jealousy over Walken....but wouldn't he always want to be the leading man in Natalie's life?
If this accident hadn't happened, they would have all got up the next day with terrible headaches, headed back to port and gone on with the movie.
Jefe, merge?
As for Natalie, I believe it was all a case of bad circumstances, with alcohol fanning the flames.....from what I have read of her, if she thought she was going to see *anyone* (meaning if she was planning on going to shore) she would have dressed correctly/made herself look like Natalie Wood, rather than thrown on her parka over her pajamas.....she probably heard the dinghy, and rather than talk to RJ after the fight, took it upon herself to go tie the damn thing up, fell and slipped in to the water....
I do wonder why after all this time RJ has decided now is a good time to talk about it.....he must need the moneypublicity very badly.....
Walken is a good actor (and very funny when he is on SNL) but he does have a creepy vibe for me.....and unless he corroborates RJ's story (and I don't really see that happening) all we will have is RJ's version of the story....
Like Cindy said, it is only one side of the story. I agree some things just don't add up. I don't know about any homosexual acts on RJ's part and I am not entirely sure I buy into that but I do believe something more happened that night that we man never know about. I remember when she died very clearly, she was one of my fav actresses and so beautiful. Such a shame.
Have Wagner and Walken ever spoken since that day?
I just don't see someone who is nervous around water stepping off on a swim step. I am afraid of heights and there's not enough wine in the world to get me on top of a tall building.
So Natalie was preparing to go to bed and then she decided to go and check the dinghy.... Natalie's story ( the night she died) upsets me for some reason...we'll NEVER know what really happened.
I am under the belief that Walken has never publicly told his story out of respect for Natalie.
Wanna see my grandkids?
Other people (friends of the Wagners) have said that the dinghy had a history of banging up against the side of the boat, and if you were in the lower room (the bedrooms) you could *really* hear it....so as Natalie was in her pajamas (and not in her clothes) my guess is she was either in bed or getting ready for bed, the noise was irritating her and so she went up to just tie the thing up
have you seen this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMZwZiU0kKs
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
it's 27 years later, one of them should come clean about what really happened. unless they were blackout drunk and don't have clear memories.
i do think it was an accident and no foul play but geez, they had been on a drunken tear for the whole trip. that's why i don't think either of them want to talk about it. i think they were so wasted, they did not even notice her absence.
---I also have always wondered why someone who was so afraid of the water would go out to the deck, drunk, at night, wearing a nightgown and a parka and step out onto a swim step. I don't think that's what happened.
I think Keeun comes the closest. I think there was jealousy on Wagner's part alright, I think was a combination of seeing her flirt with his man and Walken liking the attention from both of them. It's just an opinion, not a slam or insult on gays or on men.
I married a gay dude back in the '80s. When it all came out, we discovered that we had been with several of the same guys. Me, before our marriage, him, during. One in particular took great joy in causing problems between us when we were already trying our (my) best to be civil, we already had enough going on at the time.
It happens.
I first consciously saw Walken in James Bond and then was told that "there was a case, she went overboard and they suspect it was murder " or some such thing, that raised my interest in him and her. Not saying that's how it happened, just how someone not into Hollywood told it to me.
i also believe it was accidental, but id like to know if Natalie got outside to check the dinghy or because she was upset for a recent argument, or whatever... id really like to know..
I don't think for a minute it was murder, well it certainly wasn't premeditated,
Manslaughter is more apt.
YOu are so right lol I had to arrest a 6'2 Hells A. one time. I asked him if he was going to go peacefully or did I have to hurt him? He said..OPEN the fkng door for me, "there is nothing more dangerous than a small woman with a gun who has lost it "
Just because a woman is small does not mean she canot cause trouble or do damage to another person .
I do't think Wagner hurt Wood at all. I amsure because of theri previous marriage and her cheating and because she was a notorious flirt and liked to have affairs with her co stars that Wagner was suspicious , he did marry her twice LOL Walken never talks about anything. I think they all got drunk had a fight she went to bed, went to tie down the dingy and drowned. The fight couldn't have too bad of he and Walken went back to boozing together. If Wagner had killed or hurt her I think Walken would have talked and told.
I remember that little kid in chicago that fell into the lake ,(not completely frozen) and was in the water for over 7 minutes under the ice. He lived. and up at Flowage when we were takingthe boat out for the last time on the bow and we hit a sand bar and I went flying.I had on a down jacket and couldn't get it off and kept going under. My brother jumped in and got me and that frigging water was damn cold. It was in late Oct.
I am a decent swimmer but that down jacket filled up with water pretty fast and wearing boots lol YOu can survive, if people can jump off the Golden Gate bridge from that height and into those cold waters and live, I guess that proves it.
My husbands cousin went through the ice in February on a snowmobile. He had full gear on and had to swim a bit of a distance to shore but he made it. He said it was damn cold but he kept calm and just swam and he was alright. The ice was very thin and breaking where he went through. It was a dumbass move on his part. The snowmobile on the other hand needed lots of new parts and fixing up. Needless to say, he wont be pulling that move again!
Yeah...she seems to have been a very emotional person, and Lana has written that you crossed Natalie at your peril. An alcohol-aggravated state of rage can lead to impulsive, self-destructive gestures, perhaps to punish someone (ultimately yourself).
Just a guess, obviously, I have no idea, and I feel sorry for all of those involved. I'm sure the regret and sorrow is deep and real all around.
One lesson is obvious: do not drink to excess on boats.
how many "crew" were on the boat? should'nt they have been taking care to secure the dinghy?
Thanks so much...that was terrific. He is a great dancer and entertainer. Loved him in ""Hair Spray".
As for Natalie. I wish Chris Walken would just finally come how and clarify alittle more on what happen that evening. One thing I remember being stated back then by Dr. Thomas Noguchi. After the autopsy & investigation, Natalie had left scratches on the side of the dingy where it looked like she tried to climb into it. So that would kind of contradict what Wagner's version of she slipped and knocked herself out therefore drowning right away. She could have hit her head but tried to hold onto that dingy. Natalie was found in the same cove where she was floating with the down jacket still on and the dingy nearby.. She had to be drunk otherwise in order to swim I think she would have taken the coat off. Plus people in other boats heard someone screaming for help.
Whatever happen it was so very sad especially for the daughters. I think the youngest Courtney, eventually got engaged to Max Leroy. Then he was killed in a motorcyle accident.
God, RJ and Natalie were so beautiful. The photo montage in the OP (down at the bottom) is awesome.
I don't think we'll ever know the truth. I wonder if RJ and Walken also hold their tongues out of respect for Natalie's children? That article doesn't really clear anything up. RJ just confirms what has been the official story all along.