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Thread: Station Nightclub fire in West Warwick, Rhode Island 2

  1. #1301
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    Another great story, Billoween! Thanks so much for sharing... your comment prompted me to check out those Linda Omerod pics again, it had been a really long time since I'd looked at them. I didn't realize what was there... there's this one of Steve Mancini: SMancini.jpg and then this one of his wife, Andrea Mancini, watching him perform in front of the stage: Linda Ormerod 004.jpg Makes me sad... especially since I know Andrea's sister and remember how big a deal their wedding was 2 summers before. They definitely loved each other, and they were definitely loved.

  2. #1302
    Found a great podcast interview with John Barylick and a former KISS pyrotechnician, they discuss the Station fire, pyrotechnics, and concert safety - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg7pldk_zoA

    Interview starts around the 7:30 mark.

  3. #1303
    Oh boy, here's an interesting one! John Barylick discusses in detail the lawsuit against Brian Butler and shows the specific evidence against him (starting around the 34:50 mark): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OABI8Sj3T6c

    I've been wondering for so long how this whole thing came about and it's nice to finally see the specifics of it. I will admit I can understand why they thought they had a solid case and why the broadcaster/insurance company chose to settle rather than risk a trial.

    That said, it doesn't actually change my opinion on the matter. The fundamental issues I have with it in the first place were not touched on at all, and it's very clear to me (as someone with years of professional videography experience) that Barylick doesn't know anything about videography/camera operation and is basing this thing primarily on incorrect assumptions about camera work and speculation based on one phrase from Butler's phone call from the van. Not sure if it's worth going into more detail, as I think most people here are of the opinion that Butler likely didn't block anyone, but I can certainly elaborate if people have questions about it.

    Something that may be of interest to others here is that Barylick visually identifies a particular concertgoer, both in the crowd during the escape and in the pileup, who claimed that was Butler was impeding her. She was separated from Butler by several people through the whole thing so I'm not exactly sure how she came to the conclusion that he was blocking her, but I'd definitely be interested in seeing if she's ever mentioned the incident in a police interview or grand jury statement and getting her side of the story.

  4. #1304
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    Amanda - thanks again. Playing with more ideas. If everyone's stuck at home, stories might be just the ticket.

    Hiya Sub - thanks for the new Barylick lecture, even if it sent my blood pressure soaring.


    Did you ever wonder why Barylick doesn't stick with Butler's sound but instead uses Pickett's? I wonder if it's just too uncomfortable for him to try and explain the obvious sounds of Butler dislodging the lower black metal panel--and thereby saving multiple lives--which, of course, you don't get with Pickett's sound.

    I think Butler was a martyr whose truth was sacrificed to get big money for survivors--which didn't hurt what % the lawyers got as well. Just saying....

    It bothers the hell out of me ethically, and yet falsely disparaging Butler gave the survivors the big bucks they truly needed.

    Barylick told me this once in a note: "The book describes the facts in the light most favorable to my clients for the purposes of the litigation." I hear this as, "To get big $ for my many deserving clients, I need to fudge the truth even if it unfairly ruins a man's reputation forever. Why worry about one man when we got all this money for 310 people?" So there's a real quandary here.

    And what is Barylick's issue with the facts lately? He was way wrong about the number of people that got out the front door. And now--I mean, why oh why, with all the witness statements publicly available, does he say that only ONE non-employee got out the kitchen door? At least 14 patrons escaped via that exit. They are: Paul Braga, Steve Burgess, Jason Cooley, David Corey, Gilbert Diorio, Matthew Dussault, Stephen Eldridge, Geno Goguen, Mike McGee, Sam Miller, Jennifer Stocks, Jeff Ward, Robert Luxton, and Phillip Barr.

    Barylick better not come to my local Connecticut library, or he's going to get a real earful at Q and A.

  5. #1305
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    That is quite a find. So sad to know that that was their final night, as well as so many others.
    The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

  6. #1306
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    Quote Originally Posted by billoween View Post
    Amanda - thanks again. Playing with more ideas. If everyone's stuck at home, stories might be just the ticket.

    Hiya Sub - thanks for the new Barylick lecture, even if it sent my blood pressure soaring.


    Did you ever wonder why Barylick doesn't stick with Butler's sound but instead uses Pickett's? I wonder if it's just too uncomfortable for him to try and explain the obvious sounds of Butler dislodging the lower black metal panel--and thereby saving multiple lives--which, of course, you don't get with Pickett's sound.

    I think Butler was a martyr whose truth was sacrificed to get big money for survivors--which didn't hurt what % the lawyers got as well. Just saying....

    It bothers the hell out of me ethically, and yet falsely disparaging Butler gave the survivors the big bucks they truly needed.

    Barylick told me this once in a note: "The book describes the facts in the light most favorable to my clients for the purposes of the litigation." I hear this as, "To get big $ for my many deserving clients, I need to fudge the truth even if it unfairly ruins a man's reputation forever. Why worry about one man when we got all this money for 310 people?" So there's a real quandary here.

    And what is Barylick's issue with the facts lately? He was way wrong about the number of people that got out the front door. And now--I mean, why oh why, with all the witness statements publicly available, does he say that only ONE non-employee got out the kitchen door? At least 14 patrons escaped via that exit. They are: Paul Braga, Steve Burgess, Jason Cooley, David Corey, Gilbert Diorio, Matthew Dussault, Stephen Eldridge, Geno Goguen, Mike McGee, Sam Miller, Jennifer Stocks, Jeff Ward, Robert Luxton, and Phillip Barr.

    Barylick better not come to my local Connecticut library, or he's going to get a real earful at Q and A.
    So Butler essentially got screwed over so that 310 victims would get money? Why didn't they just give them money anyways, why ruin the reputation of someone who saved a couple lives to begin with? He obviously had the camera to the back, he didn't impede anyone and even yelled if anyone's inside. I'm just some guy in Florida that has never even been up there once and discovered this years back and did a whole bunch of research. Reading this along with just the whole tragedy in general makes me so angry sometimes. Seeing the video and the horrible suffering in it makes me sad since it was so preventable, yet if I had a dollar for how much common common sense was that night, I wouldn't even be able to afford a "need money god bless you" cardboard sign I'd hold at intersections.

    And how did he get his hands on the Picket tape audio? I thought it only belonged to the family of Matthew? It also seems he has that HD version of the video too?
    Last edited by pcwhiz24; 03-17-2020 at 08:22 PM.

  7. #1307
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    Thanks, subarctican! I'll watch the first 3/4 of JB's presentation later. But that last bit was interesting enough. Just after 38:30- "I can make a cartoon to prove anything." And he said Butler's phone call was difficult to hear?! It was in this weird version he played, but not in every other version I've ever heard.

  8. #1308
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    Quote Originally Posted by billoween View Post
    Amanda - Thank you. Plenty more stories to tell. Dion's a drummer; wonder if he'd ever seen this memorable clip of Latulipee.
    Yes I play drums as a hobby, and I was very impressed with Dale Latulipee's drumming! He made it look effortless and fun to play. And it's hard to record a good drum sound outside a professional recording studio, so I'm impressed with the sound he got too. Such a sad loss. I'd seen his video a few months ago while browsing YouTube, but thought it had been posted here already. Thanks for posting it Amanda.

    Quote Originally Posted by pcwhiz24 View Post
    And how did [Barylick] get his hands on the Picket tape audio? I thought it only belonged to the family of Matthew? It also seems he has that HD version of the video too?
    As the lead trial lawyer, Barylick had access to all the evidence including the Pickett audio. He put together the audio/video sync with the clear Butler video, intending to show it to a jury for maximum shock value. I think he says in Killer Show that he did play it for some of the companies being sued, and it helped them decide to settle rather than take it to trial.

  9. #1309
    Billoween - I totally agree it's a bit strange that he uses the Pickett audio in these presentations despite being adamant that it never get out on the internet and calling people "disaster ghouls" for being interested in it, and it is also strange how he gets so many minor details wrong on a case he was so heavily involved in. Another thing he blatantly gets wrong in this lecture was the claim that Brian Butler zoomed in on the stage door as he was exiting, which did not happen.

    RodentLady - the sound quality of the lecture is not great, both the recording and in the actual room itself. There's a lot of background noise, and when Barylick plays the same segment of the video/Pickett tape that we've already seen, it's very quiet and muffled just like the Butler phone call.

  10. #1310
    I'm also a hobbyist drummer. Playing self-taught since 1984. Here's me with Mike Portnoy, in his house about three years ago. If you're a drummer, you know who this guy is. And he literally lives 5 minutes from me. 20863604_10155681669243914_8025461893268007082_o_LI (3).jpg I doctored the photo a bit to focus more on Portnoy rather than myself.
    Last edited by Lt. Frank Drebin; 03-19-2020 at 08:10 PM.

  11. #1311
    Found a slightly higher quality version of the early stages of the fire, about 37 seconds total from just before Butler pans to the crowd until just after the fire alarm starts, and with a slightly different sound mix of the audio - the band playing sounds quite bass-y and muffled but you can hear people talking in the crowd way more clearly than in the video on the Google Drive.

    It starts around 38 seconds in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Tnzx1pQjic

  12. #1312
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    Quote Originally Posted by subarctican View Post
    Found a slightly higher quality version of the early stages of the fire, about 37 seconds total from just before Butler pans to the crowd until just after the fire alarm starts, and with a slightly different sound mix of the audio - the band playing sounds quite bass-y and muffled but you can hear people talking in the crowd way more clearly than in the video on the Google Drive.

    It starts around 38 seconds in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Tnzx1pQjic
    Good find! I can hear a woman right around 1:10 clearly saying "I can't move!" Compared to the other video I where could barely make it out. Really puts into perspective how bad it was trying to get out. It's way clearer especially the flames, you can see how symmetrical they were. If the two flames were actually outdoors and it was a controlled intentional effect, it would actually look pretty cool. I can see now why they thought it was part of the show, plus the music video to Desert Moon had fire in it too.

    One note: I never noticed the TV's in by the atrium windows!

    On another note I always wondered who's that chill looking woman towards the bottom around 0:41 holding the beer bottle and whether she made it out or not?
    Last edited by pcwhiz24; 03-19-2020 at 10:31 PM.

  13. #1313
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    Subarctican - great find!

    PCwhiz - I'm wondering if the reflections from those curved windows in the atrium are creating a TV screen effect. There were 2-3 TV's in the main bar, but I've never come across any mention of screens in the atrium. i think what you may be seeing is the bright light from the under-roof illuminating the side of the tour bus. You can even see the buses' insignia on the side. In the police/fire photos of the aftermath, that insignia is half blistered off from the atrium's heat.


    --If you look at GW's contract with The Station, these were two requirements in the rider:


    1.) "Two large pizzas with mushrooms, salami, [and] sausage toppings to be in dressing room directly after show."

    2.) "Jack Russell will carry out a meet-and-greet 20 minutes after the performance, at an area near to the merchandise section. Please ensure that there is one chair, a table, a black Sharpie pen and adequate security in the area, to ensure the smooth flow of people and the safety of the artist."

    --Now, regarding the meet-and-greet: If you were a paying subscriber to Melodicrock.com you could obtain two tickets to the show plus access to Jack Russell at the post-show meet-and-greet. Only survivor Joe LoBianco (and guest) and survivor George Dionne (and guest) were on the list. Joe brought along fellow GW fan, Michael Kulz (D), and George invited his friend Thomas Tripp. Tripp, fortunately, left before GW took the stage; he had to go and pick up his mother from the Providence bus station.
    Last edited by billoween; 03-26-2020 at 07:49 PM.

  14. #1314
    Quote Originally Posted by pcwhiz24 View Post



    On another note I always wondered who's that chill looking woman towards the bottom around 0:41 holding the beer bottle and whether she made it out or not?
    Go back to page 24 in this thread. I detailed the IDs of these two women. That "chill woman holding a beer" is actually two women. Holding the beer is Cynthia Nobles and the woman you see from the side is Angela Ochs.
    You will see them both bolting for the exit soon after the fire starts. They were the first in this area to leave.
    Last edited by Lt. Frank Drebin; 03-20-2020 at 01:10 PM.

  15. #1315
    The "TV screens" in the Atrium are definitely reflections, though they appear to be from something above the windows (something hanging down from the ceiling?) rather than the windows themselves. If you look closely you can see fans waving their hands in those reflections during Butler's initial pan right to the crowd, and then as Butler moves away you can eventually see the fire reflecting off that area.

    Another piece of audio I noticed is someone (Ken Mariorenzi? Brian Butler?) saying in a very calm and reassuring voice, "Don't push, we'll get out, relax", as well as someone saying "Just like the g___", can't make out what the last word is other than that it starts with a "g".

    Some interesting visual details I noticed for the first time with this version of the video - a guy with a baseball cap by the right speaker column who slowly makes his way around the speakers as Butler walks away from the stage, and appears to disappear around the corner toward the stage exit after that (though at that point the camera shakes enough that I can't quite get a clear view - he appears to head that way around the 1:02/1:03 mark in the link I posted). It's possible he's with the blonde-headed woman in the blue jacket (and her friend?) who can be seen in the crowd shots of the pre-fire video as well as in one of the Daniel Davidson photos.

    A few seconds later, just before the video cuts out, I believe I can see Scott V hopping down from the stage and standing in front of the entrance as band members start to exit behind him. I wonder if that stage exit was initially unguarded and then Scott V started blocking people once the band started evacuating?

    I think a high-quality version of the full video would help us make out some many more interesting details like that and piece together the timeline of when things like that were happening, who knows maybe we could even see Gina and Fred getting blocked from the exit? I'd also really like to figure out the timeline of the Davidson photos and sync them up to the video... if only WPRI would release it publicly!

    pcwhiz24 - in addition to the ID of who those women were, it was also determined that one of them is the "where's my husband?" lady that you hear right after Butler gets out of the venue.

  16. #1316
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    Quote Originally Posted by subarctican View Post
    The "TV screens" in the Atrium are definitely reflections, though they appear to be from something above the windows (something hanging down from the ceiling?) rather than the windows themselves. If you look closely you can see fans waving their hands in those reflections during Butler's initial pan right to the crowd, and then as Butler moves away you can eventually see the fire reflecting off that area.

    Another piece of audio I noticed is someone (Ken Mariorenzi? Brian Butler?) saying in a very calm and reassuring voice, "Don't push, we'll get out, relax", as well as someone saying "Just like the g___", can't make out what the last word is other than that it starts with a "g".

    Some interesting visual details I noticed for the first time with this version of the video - a guy with a baseball cap by the right speaker column who slowly makes his way around the speakers as Butler walks away from the stage, and appears to disappear around the corner toward the stage exit after that (though at that point the camera shakes enough that I can't quite get a clear view - he appears to head that way around the 1:02/1:03 mark in the link I posted). It's possible he's with the blonde-headed woman in the blue jacket (and her friend?) who can be seen in the crowd shots of the pre-fire video as well as in one of the Daniel Davidson photos.

    A few seconds later, just before the video cuts out, I believe I can see Scott V hopping down from the stage and standing in front of the entrance as band members start to exit behind him. I wonder if that stage exit was initially unguarded and then Scott V started blocking people once the band started evacuating?

    I think a high-quality version of the full video would help us make out some many more interesting details like that and piece together the timeline of when things like that were happening, who knows maybe we could even see Gina and Fred getting blocked from the exit? I'd also really like to figure out the timeline of the Davidson photos and sync them up to the video... if only WPRI would release it publicly!

    pcwhiz24 - in addition to the ID of who those women were, it was also determined that one of them is the "where's my husband?" lady that you hear right after Butler gets out of the venue.
    Did she ever find her husband? I wish they would release the full quality version too, I don't get why they don't release it nearly 20 years later now. (What happened to "Freedom of Info Act" haha)Same with the Pickett tape, I am kinda curious what went on in there but judging by the description and what I imagine it to sound I'd probably listen to it only once and then regret it lol.

    I know it's kind of a stupid question, but how did the version of the Butler video that's out now make it out? Was it leaked a long time ago? Why is it worse quality than the original one?

  17. #1317
    If I remember correctly it was determined that she did indeed find her husband a few minutes later when he came out the bar windows, though I'm sure one of the other posters here remembers this in better detail than I do.

    It is kind of weird that they don't release the full tape, it's not like they would lose any money by having it on youtube - they make money from it by licensing it out for news reports, documentaries, etc. and people in those fields who are legitimate are not going to use a pirated youtube version anyway even if it existed. A high quality version would purely be for the general public's use.

    I don't know how exactly the original version got out, my guess is it was probably broadcast in full at some point and someone videotaped it and then digitized it and put it online. Based on the resolution and quality that's out there, my guess is this was done in the early years after the fire, back when digital video was nowhere near the standards of today. The pre-fire video may have actually been leaked by an employee (though I don't know for sure) as it contains timecode throughout the whole video, which would not normally be present on a broadcast version. It's also possible that either of these were made available to other organizations (like firefighters' associations for safety training purposes or something like that) and they got leaked online that way. I really don't know for sure one way or another, but those seem like the most likely scenarios.

    As for the Pickett tape, I think it probably only exists in the possession of John Barylick and within an evidence file somewhere (like the Rhode Island Attorney General's office), and is very unlikely to ever make it out to the public beyond the segment of it that John uses in his presentations.

  18. #1318
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    Quote Originally Posted by subarctican View Post
    If I remember correctly it was determined that she did indeed find her husband a few minutes later when he came out the bar windows, though I'm sure one of the other posters here remembers this in better detail than I do.

    It is kind of weird that they don't release the full tape, it's not like they would lose any money by having it on youtube - they make money from it by licensing it out for news reports, documentaries, etc. and people in those fields who are legitimate are not going to use a pirated youtube version anyway even if it existed. A high quality version would purely be for the general public's use.

    I don't know how exactly the original version got out, my guess is it was probably broadcast in full at some point and someone videotaped it and then digitized it and put it online. Based on the resolution and quality that's out there, my guess is this was done in the early years after the fire, back when digital video was nowhere near the standards of today. The pre-fire video may have actually been leaked by an employee (though I don't know for sure) as it contains timecode throughout the whole video, which would not normally be present on a broadcast version. It's also possible that either of these were made available to other organizations (like firefighters' associations for safety training purposes or something like that) and they got leaked online that way. I really don't know for sure one way or another, but those seem like the most likely scenarios.

    As for the Pickett tape, I think it probably only exists in the possession of John Barylick and within an evidence file somewhere (like the Rhode Island Attorney General's office), and is very unlikely to ever make it out to the public beyond the segment of it that John uses in his presentations.
    Do you think the original video would've been in 720p or was 1080p already available back in 2003 for professional DSLR cameras?

  19. #1319
    Quote Originally Posted by subarctican View Post

    pcwhiz24 - in addition to the ID of who those women were, it was also determined that one of them is the "where's my husband?" lady that you hear right after Butler gets out of the venue.
    Not "determined", but more like "suspected". Angela Ochs and Cynthia Nobles stated that they exited through the front door at the time the alarm sounded, so they were way ahead of BB getting out of the place. There were many other married couples there. Anyone have a list of married couples who didn't escape together? I know that Chad Ochs escaped some time after his wife, as can be seen in the video and in testimonials.

    I'm also seeing more and more patrons who were there, but left early, therefore, they don't appear on the survivor list, but could very well appear in the pre-fire video. Can we get a list of these people? Jason Lund, Thomas Tripp, Beth Britcliffe? Sorry, but something I've been dying to ask for some time now --> who the F leaves or goes to the bathroom just before or just as the headlining act comes on?! I understand Jason Lund got a call from his pregnant wife....
    Last edited by Lt. Frank Drebin; 03-20-2020 at 08:32 PM.

  20. #1320
    Quote Originally Posted by pcwhiz24 View Post
    Do you think the original video would've been in 720p or was 1080p already available back in 2003 for professional DSLR cameras?
    The camera Butler used recorded in DVCPRO format which had a resolution of 720x480, so not even proper HD but still twice the resolution of the versions on the Google Drive folder, which most people here use as their reference - the Google Drive fire video has a resolution of only 352x240 while the pre-fire video is at 320x240.

    It's also not just a matter of resolution but bitrate as well - a higher bitrate means more detail in the picture but also bigger file sizes, and if I'm correct that the versions circulating on the internet are many years old then they would almost certainly have been encoded at a lower-than-ideal bitrate by today's standards in order to manage the much smaller file sizes that were common back then.

    There's also the matter of compression - the more times you make a copy of a copy (i.e. digitize the video, upload it somewhere, someone downloads it and puts red time markers every 30 seconds then re-uploads it, then someone downloads that version, etc), the more you lose quality as the video gets progressively more compressed.

    So if we were to get our hands on the master file that was originally digitized from the tape by WPRI it would be of far superior quality to any of the versions floating around the internet as of now - it would be 720x480, either 25 or 50 mbps depending what type of tape Butler was shooting on (probably 25 for the longer recording length for news video), and with no crappy compression from being uploaded and downloaded online. This is almost certainly the version that John Barylick has on his laptop, and I hope one day we too will be privy to see it, though I'm not too optimistic about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lt. Frank Drebin View Post
    Not "determined", but more like "suspected". Angela Ochs and Cynthia Nobles stated that they exited through the front door at the time the alarm sounded, so they were way ahead of BB getting out of the place. There were many other married couples there. Anyone have a list of married couples who didn't escape together? I know that Chad Ochs escaped some time after his wife, as can be seen in the video and in testimonials.
    I recall seeing a discussion quite a while back where someone found that there were no cases of husband/wife couples being separated and the husband dying in the club, and that these two women were the only cases of the women getting out before their husbands. Or something of that nature that seemed to pretty much confirm that one of the two must've been the "where's my husband" lady.

    I could very well be misremembering, though. Or the person/people that said those things were wrong. This is just what I recall when this subject pops up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lt. Frank Drebin View Post
    Sorry, but something I've been dying to ask for some time now --> who the F leaves or goes to the bathroom just before or just as the headlining act comes on?!
    11:07 is a pretty odd time to start, so I'm guessing they were scheduled to go on at 11:00 and ran a bit late, so people probably didn't know how much longer it was gonna take and decided to make a bathroom run thinking they'd get back before Great White started. Or something like that.
    Last edited by subarctican; 03-20-2020 at 09:08 PM.

  21. #1321
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    Quote Originally Posted by subarctican View Post
    The camera Butler used recorded in DVCPRO format which had a resolution of 720x480, so not even proper HD but still twice the resolution of the versions on the Google Drive folder, which most people here use as their reference - the Google Drive fire video has a resolution of only 352x240 while the pre-fire video is at 320x240.

    It's also not just a matter of resolution but bitrate as well - a higher bitrate means more detail in the picture but also bigger file sizes, and if I'm correct that the versions circulating on the internet are many years old then they would almost certainly have been encoded at a lower-than-ideal bitrate by today's standards in order to manage the much smaller file sizes that were common back then.

    There's also the matter of compression - the more times you make a copy of a copy (i.e. digitize the video, upload it somewhere, someone downloads it and puts red time markers every 30 seconds then re-uploads it, then someone downloads that version, etc), the more you lose quality as the video gets progressively more compressed.

    So if we were to get our hands on the master file that was originally digitized from the tape by WPRI it would be of far superior quality to any of the versions floating around the internet as of now - it would be 720x480, either 25 or 50 mbps depending what type of tape Butler was shooting on (probably 25 for the longer recording length for news video), and with no crappy compression from being uploaded and downloaded online. This is almost certainly the version that John Barylick has on his laptop, and I hope one day we too will be privy to see it, though I'm not too optimistic about that.



    I recall seeing a discussion quite a while back where someone found that there were no cases of husband/wife couples being separated and the husband dying in the club, and that these two women were the only cases of the women getting out before their husbands. Or something of that nature that seemed to pretty much confirm that one of the two must've been the "where's my husband" lady.

    I could very well be misremembering, though. Or the person/people that said those things were wrong. This is just what I recall when this subject pops up.



    11:07 is a pretty odd time to start, so I'm guessing they were scheduled to go on at 11:00 and ran a bit late, so people probably didn't know how much longer it was gonna take and decided to make a bathroom run thinking they'd get back before Great White started. Or something like that.
    Hopefully one day or maybe even the Guest List documentary will at least give us more footage. How would the quality of the master file compare to the resolution/bit-rate of the video segment (courtroom one) you linked earlier?

  22. #1322
    Quote Originally Posted by pcwhiz24 View Post
    Hopefully one day or maybe even the Guest List documentary will at least give us more footage. How would the quality of the master file compare to the resolution/bit-rate of the video segment (courtroom one) you linked earlier?
    The Guest List will almost certainly give us more footage, as the trailer shows shots of the pre-fire crowd and Butler walking away from the stage, and they wouldn't pay the (probably exorbitant) licensing fees for that footage to only use it in the trailer and not the movie. Whether we'll get substantial amounts or just a few 3-second clips here and there remains to be seen. But surely there will be some.

    As far as quality goes, the master file uploaded to youtube would probably be very similar to the link I posted, but viewed on its own on a computer (as John Barylick has it) it would look a fair bit better (to someone with an eye for detail, anyway), as youtube puts ugly compression on everything.

  23. #1323
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    Quote Originally Posted by subarctican View Post
    Another piece of audio I noticed is someone (Ken Mariorenzi? Brian Butler?) saying in a very calm and reassuring voice, "Don't push, we'll get out, relax", as well as someone saying "Just like the g___", can't make out what the last word is other than that it starts with a "g".
    The word sounds like garden with a New England accent- "godden." The Garden was a major Boston entertainment venue.

    To me, the man saying, "Come on, no pushing. We'll get out. Relax." sounds like Butler. Yet I also wonder if he could be Jay Gates. Gates was near the ticket booth at that time. Earlier in the thread, I described how Gates could be the dude my brother-in-law knocked into, sloshing some of dude's beer and making him angry. Gates told his recollection of a beer sloshing event to Rolling Stone magazine. My sister recalled to me walking in front of her boyfriend/husband who was bear-hugging her from the back so they wouldn't get separated. Must have been more like shuffling, I imagine. A man leaning against a wall (or doorway, I don't remember her exact words) said something reassuring, like what is heard in the recording. Then the beer bumping happened. Since Gates is seen exiting right behind Butler, he must have been very close as the camera went by, recording that audio.

    So Jay Gates fits with what I was told, but the voice sounds like Butler. There ya go!

  24. #1324
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    Had a lady on Instagram commenting on the fire she said she was there the night of the fire and was trapped inside, I kind of smelled BS, so I asked her what door did she get out of, she said the band door, I said...oh really...she quickly logged off and deleted her account...
    Do no harm, But take no crap.

  25. #1325
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    Hobbyist Frank - enjoyed your picture with Portnoy. You must be in drummer's heaven during your sessions together.

    Rodent L. - Could "godden" be "goddamn?"
    - So RL, with your loved ones shown, do you still get the heebs when you revisit that sequence in the corridor?

    Pks - Yea, for your vigilant policing of the truth. Way to go. I'm working on a entry about who-left-by-stage-door and in-what-order. You'll see it here soon.

    Sub - Those are the Conant sisters in front; blonde-haired Nicole in denim, and her taller but younger sister, Stephanie. They became friendly with GW after having seen them 12+ times. They had even dropped by The Station at 4:00 in the afternoon on the 20th to give them an early hello. They said they were big fans of Mark Lane, in particular, which is why they positioned themselves where they did.

    Other possible light sources bouncing around the atrium: light-up beer signs near windows; lights hanging above where the pool tables normally sat, and--most importantly--the bright lights shooting down from under the roof overhang illuminating the side of the tour bus, which is 5-7 feet from the windows.

    Possible time scenario:
    11:03 - GW's 3-minute intro tape begins
    11:06 - GW plays
    11:07 - GW's pyro ignites foam

    -Is it possible that Barylick still gets to use his Butler footage/Pickett sound piece because he had "created" it for the trial? Like maybe there's some exception he's engineered, because it was his baby--for the trial that never was? It does beg some permission questions. Like hmmm.....he gets WPRI-TV (LIN Television was the parent company) to fork over 30 million dollars and they no longer care if he shows their footage now whenever he wants?

    -I hope the Pickett family never attends his lectures. They probably don't need to hear Matthew's last gasps again.
    Last edited by billoween; 03-26-2020 at 07:44 PM.

  26. #1326
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    Quote Originally Posted by billoween View Post
    Rodent L. - Could "godden" be "goddamn?"
    - So RL, with your loved ones shown, do you still get the heebs when you revisit that sequence in the corridor?
    I don't hear "goddam." It hear, "Just like The Garden." That context works well, as if that man had a crowd experience at The Garden.

    I only have a natural response to anything about the fire the first time I see/hear/read it. After that, I don't have much emotion. I'm analytical and curious. My sister and BIL were never recorded on video. They must have been in front of Butler. A detective asked them (separately) if they would be okay with viewing the 'before' footage to look for themselves or anyone else they could identify. They agreed. Neither of them saw themselves.

    I think she told me that the reassuring tones/beer bump man was drunk. So maybe he was slower to react than he otherwise would have been.

  27. #1327
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    For anyone curious about the Pickett tape, I just found another John Barylick Killer Show lecture like the one posted where he shows the Butler/Pickett video. This time there's no one talking in the background so you can hear it much more clearly.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUndJG44Moc
    Video starts at 14:40
    He stops about 1:30 into it but it really gives us a really good idea of what went on in there after Butler left. It's exactly as the book describes, and it's heartbreaking. I'll warn you the part he does play is as bad as I imagined. I don't even want to know what happens after he pauses.

  28. #1328
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    Anniversary talk by John Barylick on Feb 22,2020 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OABI8Sj3T6c
    Do no harm, But take no crap.

  29. #1329
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    Hey, hope everyone is doing okay. Life's gotten a little more complicated, right?, but I just wanted to say I am almost done with an "examination" of who left the stage door and in what order. Found several surprises in the research. Anyway...best wishes to everybody.

    BS - I did make one big change in my post of 3-22 (#1325). It involves lights seen in the atrium and the sight (on BB) of the touring buses' insignia.

  30. #1330
    Can't wait to see your analysis, Billoween! I've always wondered how exactly things unfolded at the stage doors and the details I saw in the higher quality video I posted have only made me more curious.

  31. #1331
    I had written a nice long reply which for some reason did not post but!

    I have read and been in both threads thoroughly as somehow I became ensconced in this event because I feel like was a "it could have been me event" plus IDK how I even got into this but I feel like you guys helped to show how brave and honorable the attendees were even if they didn't know it at the time and that y'all helped "put respeck on their names".

    I am so into SNF my kids will see me "sucked into my devices" and ask "are you on SNF again..." I got into it when they were both in elementary school and they are now young adults...

    but my question is: have we identified this lady featured starting at 0:06 with the baby blue jacket. she kinda looked as if "I'm just here with my friends" or "he asked me out a date..ok I came"

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1wWktCkulV0

  32. #1332
    Had an interesting dream last night, I was watching the Station fire video and the camera pointed out directly at the exit as people started to leave and I could see the people walking into the entrance hallway. It was clear as day (maybe I was actually there in the dream instead of watching the video?) and it felt 3D like real life instead of watching it on a 2D computer screen. There was also a weird and distorted version of Desert Moon playing in the background.

    Quote Originally Posted by bustakita View Post
    but my question is: have we identified this lady featured starting at 0:06 with the baby blue jacket. she kinda looked as if "I'm just here with my friends" or "he asked me out a date..ok I came"

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1wWktCkulV0
    The lady in the blue jacket and the woman beside her are the Conant sisters, who Billoween talks about in post #1325 on this page. They were big Great White fans apparently and seem to have snuck out through the stage exit along with the guy in the baseball cap behind them, shortly after the fire started.
    Last edited by subarctican; 03-29-2020 at 09:21 AM.

  33. #1333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lt. Frank Drebin View Post
    Thank you for giving me that back story. The trouble I'm running into here is the lack of interest on IDing those involved. Most want to know and see who died. I put in a lot of work into IDing who I believe to be Cynthia Nobles and Angela Ochs, as well as many other survivors, but no ensuing interest. Crickets. I think we keep going over the same people in the videos round-and-round because of a lack of genuine interest. So am I doing this for my own edification? If no one gives a damn, why should I be doing this when I could be doing something else constructive? What happened to those genuinely interested? Billoween and RodentLady seem to be the only ones truly interested. Pathetic.


    Your efforts are much appreciated on my end.
    Last edited by CWC67; 03-29-2020 at 12:53 PM.

  34. #1334
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    Quote Originally Posted by RodentLady View Post
    The word sounds like garden with a New England accent- "godden." The Garden was a major Boston entertainment venue.
    Sounds to me like "Just like we got here"

  35. #1335
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    Like most of you, I've been preoccupied lately by the surreal world we are now living in. Just now joining the latest discussion, I also congratulate subarctican on the great YouTube find! It shows brief portions of the Butler video that are much clearer than we have seen before, both audio and video. Note the AP logo and no other captions. More than likely, this is essentially the original Butler video obtained by press organizations right after the event. We can look forward to more clear excerpts like this when The Guest List is finally released.

    Below is the section of the Butler video transcript I made and posted on the Google Drive, compared with what I think is now more accurate. Note some other updates: based on Butler's Grand Jury Testimony page 51, he identifies himself as the speaker at 0:56. Furthermore on pages 36 to 37, Butler explains that 2 DVDs were made from his original recording, with the same video but different audio. His camera had both a "stick mic" and an ambient mic. I am convinced that the audio from the Google Drive is from one mic, while the audio from this recently uncovered recording is from the other mic. The sound of the guy apparently saying "just like we got here" is loud in the recent video, but almost blends into the background noise on the Google Drive version.

    Original:
    0:47 [JR] Wow. That's not good.
    0:51 ..on fire!
    0:54 [louder] ..on fire!
    0:55 [female] Let's just go!
    0:56 [BB?] Don't push, we'll get out, don't worry.
    0:58 [30 seconds caption on screen]
    0:58 [Fire alarm sounds in club]
    0:58 Go out of there.

    New video:
    0:47 [JR] Wow. That's not good.
    0:51 ..on fire!
    0:52 Just like we got here.

    0:54 [louder] ..on fire!
    0:55 [female] I can't move!
    0:56 [BB] Don't push, we'll get out, relax.
    0:58 [30 seconds caption on screen]
    0:58 [Fire alarm sounds in club]
    0:58 Get out of there.
    0:59 [female] I can't!

    Hopefully as we get more excerpts of the clear video, more corrections can be made.

    As for the lights/reflections in the atrium first noted by pcwhiz as possibly TVs, I hadn't noticed them either. If you review the videos on the Google Drive by Evelyn Brito and Emery Vesch, the atrium area is filmed extensively on nights prior to the fire. The main lighting in the atrium are from large light fixtures hanging over pool tables. As we know, the pool tables were pushed back against the windows to make more standing room the night of the fire, but the fixtures remain. Having said that, the "lights" seen on the Butler video seem to almost cover the atrium windows. I almost want to say you can see lights on inside the GW bus outside those windows. But that's just my opinion. An interesting new question though.
    Last edited by dionyzus; 03-31-2020 at 07:48 AM. Reason: The consensus for the statement at 0:52 seems to be "just like we got here."

  36. #1336
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    The more I listen to it, it sounds to me like "Just like we got here" (possibly "Got In" = gar-den) in other words take the same path.....
    Last edited by CWC67; 03-30-2020 at 09:06 AM.

  37. #1337
    Great info about the mics, dionyzus! That explains a lot!

    Indeed, the Google Drive video uses the camera's built-in internal microphone, which are notoriously awful and almost never used in production (as evidenced by that video's thin, tinny sound) while the AP video snippet uses the audio source from the much higher quality stick mic (also known as a shotgun mic), with the richer, deeper sound and much better bass presence.

    This also explains why the Google Drive video has only audio on the left channel - while Butler was recording the video, the internal mic was set to the left channel (and never panned to center by whoever edited the Google Drive video) and the external mic to the right channel (and panned to center by the editor of the AP video). Love finding out little details like this!
    Last edited by subarctican; 03-30-2020 at 10:40 AM.

  38. #1338
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWC67 View Post
    The more I listen to it, it sounds to me like "Just like we got here" (possibly "Got In" = gar-den) in other words take the same path.....
    I agree with you CWC. That makes sense with the context of the situation. That's just what someone would say, pointing ahead toward the front door and saying "just like we got in."

  39. #1339
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    Unhappy



    Still get that eerie feeling whenever I see this logo at work, today was no exception:
    Last edited by CWC67; 03-30-2020 at 05:47 PM.

  40. #1340
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWC67 View Post
    The more I listen to it, it sounds to me like "Just like we got here"
    I think so, too! He's doing something strange with his pronunciation of the vowel sound. All of the southern New Englanders I remember would always pronounce got as "gut" with a short u (but not a schwa,) myself included. The man in the video is stretching out the sound so it's sort of a combination of a short o and a short u.

  41. #1341
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    Hi all—

    Something to watch in your “spare time.”

    On the Drive—search>Giamei>03-369-PR Mario Giamei on Dateline. There is much of that pristine footage spliced in and Lt. Frank is gonna have a field day.
    Even uses the clearest pre-show I’ve ever seen!

    Something to cheer you up:

    Mario Giamei, survivor and the former bouncer, can be pretty funny sometimes. This was him on Daniel Biechele:

    “All I know is if that roadie was supposed to be some kind of [pyro] technician, then I’m the next president of the United States.”

    —The stage door is a tough puzzle, but I got it 85% figured out. I’m trying to push myself to get it done because I know you guys need a diversion. Which it has been for me, too.
    Last edited by billoween; 04-04-2020 at 03:49 PM.

  42. #1342
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    I think the absolute worst image from the fire that we have is the Adam Florio photo of the front door. It’s a little hard to make out at first, but if you study the left hand portion above the bystanders’ heads...well, I almost feel bad pointing it out. I bet the attorney general would have omitted/redacted it if he’d noticed all it showed.

    (Adam Florio 003.jpg)

  43. #1343
    That Dateline footage is great! Another really interesting thing about it that I had never considered before is that the video was shot at 60fps, meaning if we had a file with the master video on it we could slow it down and get high quality slow motion (as you see in that Dateline video a few times) making it even easier to find details. Come on, WPRI! Also, the report about the crowd safety stuff after the Station fire segment is really good and worth a watch as well.

    Can't make out anything particular in that Adam Florio photo, I guess it's probably for the best...

  44. #1344
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcwhiz24 View Post
    For anyone curious about the Pickett tape, I just found another John Barylick Killer Show lecture like the one posted where he shows the Butler/Pickett video. This time there's no one talking in the background so you can hear it much more clearly.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUndJG44Moc
    Video starts at 14:40
    He stops about 1:30 into it but it really gives us a really good idea of what went on in there after Butler left. It's exactly as the book describes, and it's heartbreaking. I'll warn you the part he does play is as bad as I imagined. I don't even want to know what happens after he pauses.
    This is the same video that RodentLady posted on December 8 in post 1132.

  45. #1345
    Well, I've been doing some analysis of my own and I think I have the Daniel Davidson photos more or less synced up to the video now. This was all possible thanks to that higher quality Associated Press video snippet I posted further up on this page, as you can clearly see the flashes from his camera (or reflections of the flashes) several times on that version but not on the Google Drive one for some reason.

    Photo 037 - first flames clearly visible after the pyro stops - this is at 27 seconds in the GD video (43 secs in the AP video), right as Butler is panning back to the stage, about 9 frames after the Start Clock sign shows up. You can see Scott V from the back in the Davidson photos and from the front in the Butler video, cigarette in mouth and one hand up near his face.

    Photo 038 - Biechele on stage staring at the fire with a flashlight in his mouth - I believe this is at 41 seconds in the GD video (57 in the AP video), right when Jack says "now" in the line "Come on now...". This one was a bit tricky because it's one of three separate camera flashes in a six second span, but I'm reasonably confident this is the right one - the first flash (37 secs GD / 53 secs AP) is too early after Butler walks away for Biechele to have gotten up there so fast, and the second one (39 secs GD / 55 secs AP) appears to be taken from too far back to be Daniel Davidson.

    This one surprised me the most because the band is still playing at this time and I had always assumed that nobody else had come onto the stage until after they stopped, but clearly I was wrong. Upon closer inspection, I noticed you can see someone (appears to be a bald-headed bouncer but hard to tell) dart onstage just as Butler begins walking away - this is only visible for a few frames and then a baseball cap comes in the way and blocks the view (just before Joe Kinan appears in the shot).

    Photo 032 - the most famous of the bunch, drummer in the gold vest leaving while Biechele and Scott V face toward the camera - 48 seconds in the GD video (1:04 in the AP video), immediately after Jack Russell says "Wow". This lines up with Jack having the mic right up to his face in the photo (implying he was speaking into it when the photo was taken) and the guy with the baseball cap who was behind the Conant sisters is just moving around the speaker column toward the stage exit in the video which lines up with his position in the photo.

    The next two are a bit tricky as they were taken without flash so some guesswork was involved, and they were taken in very quick succession...

    Photo 033 - a bouncer (Tracy King?) walking off stage, while Jack appears to be throwing water on the fire in the background - around 52 seconds in the GD video (1:08 AP). This one was the hardest to figure out due to the very poor view of the stage in the video but I think the 52 second mark is pretty accurate - in the photo, you can see Jack Russell and bass player Dave Filice standing close together while guitarist Mark Kendall is near them just off-screen, and in the video at that time you can see the silhouettes of all three roughly close to one another, so that seems about right.

    Photo 039
    - Dave and Mark run off stage while Scott V stands in front - somewhere around the 56 second mark in the GD video (1:12 in the AP video). I've heard rumors that the person on the left side of the photo is Gina Russo and that this is when she and Fred were denied exit by Scott V but I have no idea if this is actually true. I'll be very interested in seeing Billoween's analysis of those events and whether they line up with this.

    Whew that was a lot of analysis but well worth it! I'd been wondering about when exactly these photos were taken and it feels really good to finally have a solid idea!
    Last edited by subarctican; 04-07-2020 at 08:13 AM. Reason: fixed timestamp error for photo 038

  46. #1346
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    Hey everyone, just popping in to say hello and thank everyone who has been putting so much time and effort into this! There's been a lot of great research done here lately, and it's all been really interesting to read. Unfortunately, I can't really participate too much right now as I work in a hospital and things have been (just a little) crazy, but I am still following this thread and reading all the updates as they come.

    Thank you all for keeping it alive, and I hope everyone is staying safe out there! <3

  47. #1347
    Another day, another great video find! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeAh9uJPL7U

    This is from a CBS news report the day after the fire with a bunch of short clips from both the fire and pre-fire videos and is by far the clearest footage I've seen (especially that shot of the pre-fire crowd from the stage - wow!)

    It also features some interesting interviews on-site that I hadn't seen before, including Nicole Conant, Brian Butler, and a guy who claims that he escaped when he heard Brian Butler yelling from outside, as well as various friends and relatives of victims the day afterward.
    Last edited by subarctican; 04-06-2020 at 07:47 PM.

  48. #1348
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    Sub - your Davidson photo analysis with Butler timeline has been oh so helpful. Thanks. Part of the stage door game is keeping 25+ witness accounts in mind at the same time. Now I'm like one of those TV characters with a bulletin board and push pins and string connecting certain photos. Just want to get it as accurate as possible.

    Amanda - thanks for filling us in; wondered where you'd been. A hospital?--perfect for this forum. Good luck to you and be careful.

  49. #1349
    Glad I could help! I can't wait for your analysis to be done, I love seeing all these little details come together

    Another thing I just recently noticed - I'm about 99% sure the camera flash at 37 seconds GD / 53 secs AP (the one that I dismissed as a candidate for Photo 038 because it was too early) is from Adam Florio taking photo 001 of the band playing with the flames in the background.

  50. #1350
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    I still can't imagine how horrible it was for those involved. I am curious about the police officer in John's video. He talks about the police officer who called in the report. He seemed really slammed up against the wall. It was strange that he got out.
    The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

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