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Thread: Station Nightclub fire in West Warwick, Rhode Island 2

  1. #1601
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    Quote Originally Posted by astronauthen96 View Post
    Does anybody know where they came from and who took them, I can't find them anywhere on google drive The video i'm talking about is here https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1F...ew?usp=sharing around 7 minutes in

    Thanks
    Good find Astronaut. You're right, these two photos from this documentary don't look like any photos included on the Google Drive. The earlier photo appears to capture the terrible moment when fire is just starting to erupt from the front door. As far as I know, no other photos or video capture this moment, so it is significant. It's also notable that a fire truck has just arrived by this point. You can hear the sirens arriving in Butler's video when he was behind the club, so this picture was taken right about then.

  2. #1602
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    Thanks everyone, also another thing i noticed in the butler video (the red time stamp version) during the two minute stamp when butler turns to the front doorway if you look to the right stairway there's a man climbing up to help people out and it looks his shirt might say "event security" on the back and it almost looks like scott Vieria, do you think it could be him?

    We also see him in the parking lot at the 10:35 mark

  3. 11-15-2020, 06:09 PM

  4. #1603
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    Iím sure this has been addressed but has anyone ever actually asked WPRI for the footage?

  5. #1604
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    Quote Originally Posted by alpowers7 View Post
    I’m sure this has been addressed but has anyone ever actually asked WPRI for the footage?
    Yup, I emailed them earlier this year. Here's what I asked them:

    "Regarding the Station Nightclub Fire on February 2003, how much are the licensing fees for the original footage taken by Brian Butler of the fire if we plan on using it for a documentary?"

    …and got this as a response:

    "WPRI/WNAC TV does not release this footage."

  6. #1605
    Quote Originally Posted by pcwhiz24 View Post
    Yup, I emailed them earlier this year. Here's what I asked them:

    "Regarding the Station Nightclub Fire on February 2003, how much are the licensing fees for the original footage taken by Brian Butler of the fire if we plan on using it for a documentary?"

    …and got this as a response:

    "WPRI/WNAC TV does not release this footage."
    Uhh, what? Clearly they do release the footage since it's used in plenty of news reports, the Guest List documentary, etc. What are they talking about here? I guess maybe if you appear to be a random individual inquiring about it they shoot you down. But for sure a legit news organization, documentary film company, etc. would be able to get their hands on specific parts of it for a licensing fee.

  7. #1606
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    Quote Originally Posted by subarctican View Post
    Uhh, what? Clearly they do release the footage since it's used in plenty of news reports, the Guest List documentary, etc. What are they talking about here? I guess maybe if you appear to be a random individual inquiring about it they shoot you down. But for sure a legit news organization, documentary film company, etc. would be able to get their hands on specific parts of it for a licensing fee.
    This makes no sense to me. The unedited version has already been released and can be viewed on several social media platforms. There has to be a law fair use or something where others can have access. Why allow us to all see the unedited but prevent the edited? You are so right because there was a fire in a club in a Brazil I believe a couple years ago and they showed the pile up at the door and it was super clear.

  8. #1607
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    Crazy. I emailed them before I posted my post. I should tell them Iím making a documentary and see what they say. Idk, this tragedy is one that sticks with me and I just want to see a clear video that shows what happened. I canít explain it, Iím not into gore I just literally want to see what happened

  9. #1608
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    Someone asked me a while back to try and clear up the footage from before the fire and I tried but itís not much better. I gave up lol. Itís just such terrible quality to deal with and try to fix

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/crpliondnt...eo%29.mov?dl=0

  10. #1609
    In my opinion, part of the $30 million Butler settlement should've included the full public release of all footage he filmed that night.

    It's ridiculous how they hold on to it and refuse to release it. Just imagine if you couldn't find reasonable quality videos of 9/11 or some other major event because the news organizations that filmed it refused to release it, what a ridiculous idea.

    And yet WPRI keeps this footage tightly locked. Why? It's not like they're likely to lose any money by releasing it - the average person wouldn't pay anything to watch that footage anyway, and any legitimate news channel, documentary company, etc. is going to do it the legal way and pay licensing fees even if it was publicly available, to avoid getting sued. I just don't get it...

  11. #1610
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    Quote Originally Posted by alpowers7 View Post
    Someone asked me a while back to try and clear up the footage from before the fire and I tried but itís not much better. I gave up lol. Itís just such terrible quality to deal with and try to fix

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/crpliondnt...eo%29.mov?dl=0
    Even seeing color is an improvement. The available videos have been cropped and "squished" too. I don't think it's possible, with conventional software, to turn the bottom frame into the top frame in this comparison:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    AI could go a long way though. The YT channel Neural Networks and Deep Learning, among others, uses AI to enhance videos. Here's a super clear video of JFK in '63: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPv6BkxFFsk Most AI-enhanced videos from the 1910s on are better quality than the SNF videos. Perhaps if enough of us ask them to use AI on the SNF videos...
    Last edited by airyaerie; 11-19-2020 at 07:45 AM. Reason: I was foolish/this site is also foolish

  12. #1611
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    Quote Originally Posted by subarctican View Post
    In my opinion, part of the $30 million Butler settlement should've included the full public release of all footage he filmed that night.

    It's ridiculous how they hold on to it and refuse to release it. Just imagine if you couldn't find reasonable quality videos of 9/11 or some other major event because the news organizations that filmed it refused to release it, what a ridiculous idea.

    And yet WPRI keeps this footage tightly locked. Why? It's not like they're likely to lose any money by releasing it - the average person wouldn't pay anything to watch that footage anyway, and any legitimate news channel, documentary company, etc. is going to do it the legal way and pay licensing fees even if it was publicly available, to avoid getting sued. I just don't get it...
    Maybe it was part of a court settlement he not release it, just like the Christine suicide video, it's locked away to never be released due to perhaps to lower the risk of family members seeing it, I mean it's bad enough they might stumble on the preshow footage and the fire that is out, heck look what Nikki Catsouras family has to deal with, with their daughter's car accident and dead body online, if it was my family member in any video like that I would fight to take it down and would not want to see it myself, before you say well they don't have to search for it, in the case of Nikki's family it was getting sent to them in emails and texts.
    No More Stolen Sisters.

  13. #1612
    Quote Originally Posted by pkstracy View Post
    Maybe it was part of a court settlement he not release it, just like the Christine suicide video, it's locked away to never be released due to perhaps to lower the risk of family members seeing it, I mean it's bad enough they might stumble on the preshow footage and the fire that is out, heck look what Nikki Catsouras family has to deal with, with their daughter's car accident and dead body online, if it was my family member in any video like that I would fight to take it down and would not want to see it myself, before you say well they don't have to search for it, in the case of Nikki's family it was getting sent to them in emails and texts.
    I don't think that's the case. Snippets of the footage are used in various news reports and in the upcoming Guest List documentary, so they're still definitely allowing it to get out, just only small pieces at a time for a (probably) exorbitant licensing fee. And if I remember correctly, the low quality versions we have circulating online stem from a DVD version that was originally released with some material from the Rhode Island Attorney General's office back in the day, or something like that. So there was definitely no court decision that the footage should be banned. It's just WPRI keeping it for (probably) financial reasons or something along those lines.

    While I totally sympathize with not wanting family members to accidentally be exposed to it, I don't think it's at all the same situation as the car accident scenario you mentioned above, as the Station fire video is quite long and features hundreds of people rather than an incident focused on one specific person, in that sense I would definitely compare it more to 9/11 footage (or the Indian Ocean/Japanese tsunamis, etc)... a major public incident affecting a tremendous amount of people with many important public safety lessons to be learned from it.

  14. #1613
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    I get what you are saying but the news station are the owners of that and maybe the families asked that it not be all out there, I mean I hate watching footage of the 9/11 because my uncle died in that, and it was someone's home video, there is a brief snippet of him going into the building and moments later it came down, the person gave my aunt their copy and I don't know what she did with it, but it's not online, but if it were, my aunt would have done anything to get it taken down.
    No More Stolen Sisters.

  15. #1614
    Sorry to hear about your uncle. I imagine I would want that tape kept offline as well if I were in that situation too.

    I doubt the news station factored those sorts of things into their decisions on releasing the footage though. There are numerous snippets within news reports of clear shots of people piled in the doorway, trying to exit the club, etc. so anyone could be exposed to that on the news and even see a person they specifically know, even many years later. Not to mention that, by its very nature, the news covers many tragic events that would be very triggering and upsetting to people who were involved. So I would be very surprised if the lack of release has anything to do with that, I really think it's just a copyright/financial thing.

    Personally I think when it comes to more personal stuff, like the Medical Examiner's photos of the bodies or whatever, things like that definitely shouldn't be released unless the families specifically want it. Even the Pickett tape, as curious as most people here are about it, I completely understand and respect why it's been kept private.

    But I really believe the original Butler tape is of enough significance and public importance that it should be accessible in its best possible form for those who are interested in seeing it.

  16. #1615
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    Hi all and welcome new folks.

    Bulletin: new documentary on the Colectiv Nightclub Fire (Romanian with subtitles) just out, and it got a stellar review in the New York Times. Running time: 1:49. Supposed to be available ďon iTunes, Google Play, and other streaming platforms.Ē
    That fire occurred the night of 10/30/15.
    The documentary is called ďCollective.Ē

  17. #1616
    Great find, Billoween! I'd never heard of this documentary before but will definitely check it out.

    Trailer can be seen here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI35s5gyTm8

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    Quote Originally Posted by subarctican View Post
    Yeah that's definitely around the time Butler was at the back of the building (or just coming around to the front), and it's way too early for news crews to have arrived, so this must've been taken by an escaped concertgoer (or passerby, though it doesn't seem like there'd be too many at that time of the night).
    This is crazy what happened.
    Carolyn(1958-2009) always in my heart.

  19. #1618
    Well I ended up watching the Collective documentary this evening and it was very interesting. It focused almost entirely on the legal and political aftermath of the event, in particular the corruption in the healthcare system that resulted in 37 of the 64 deaths occurring in hospitals in weeks/months that followed the fire, quite a stark contrast to the Station where almost all the deaths were in the club on the night of the event. It was very interesting watching the journalists investigate and put the pieces together, made me think of what it must've been like for John Barylick and his team when they were doing their investigations.

    There was also about a minute of very haunting footage from inside the club as the fire first erupted, taken from two different camera angles that I have not seen anywhere online.

    In particular there are a couple things in that are very clear in that footage which we don't really see in the Station fire video but we know it happened there too - the intense rain of melting foam coming down from the ceiling, and the wave of fire suddenly rolling across the ceiling and igniting it and the ensuing panic and attempt to leave the building by the crowd.

    This is intensified by the fact that the footage is taken from people still well inside the club as conditions become apocalyptic, and not a cameraman who escaped just as things were starting to get bad. I don't know who took those videos or what their status is but one angle was taken from the soundboard at the very back of the room and high up, and the other was someone fairly far back in the crowd, nowhere near the front of the lineup to get out the one working door in that venue. So it's quite possible/likely that the people who took that footage didn't survive. Very chilling stuff.

    Really makes you wonder what kind of footage we'd have from the Station fire if it had happened during the era of camera phones...


    Edit: turns out the footage used in the documentary actually is online (without the English subtitles, though): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96DAFllyTJo

  20. #1619
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    i'm kinda creeped out here because i was just coming to post the same youtube video you just did, subartican!!!

    blew me away how fast the fire spread across the ceiling. amazing! helps to understand how you need to get out within the first minute or two.

  21. #1620
    Indeed, that wave of fire rolling across the ceiling is terrifying, as is all the molten foam raining down. If Brian Butler had been in the Station a little while longer we probably would've seen something similar on that video.

    And I think this fire went out of control even faster than the Station, the entire ceiling becomes engulfed in less than 30 seconds after ignition. And that firestorm near the end of the clip is one of the most terrifying things I've ever seen!

    I know at the Station some of the early escapees struggled with getting the bar room door open until someone broke a window, due to the fire sucking up the fresh air, and that the breaking of windows certainly fed the fire but were there any reports of a mini firestorm with a ton of wind inside the Station like there was at Colectiv? The amount of wind at the end of that video is unreal and seeing the light from the fire get brighter and brighter as it's fed by fresh air from outside is so unbelievably creepy!

    Also the youtube clip doesn't have the English subtitles from the documentary, so here they are:

    0:41 - "Cheers!"
    0:45 - "To all of us"
    0:47 - "Thank you very much for being here tonight"
    0:50 - "Something's on fire here"
    0:56 - "That's not part of the show"
    1:03 - "Is there a fire extinguisher?"

  22. #1621
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    I spoke with my mother last week. The parents moved back to RI from FL last year. They had been old acquaintances of the Derderian family since the late 1960s. The Ds were above our station, but the population of the state was so tiny that it barely mattered. I asked Mom if she knew about Robert D's death. Yes, she did. I guess she hadn't considered it newsworthy enough to tell me.

    She confirmed that Joan, mother of the three brothers, died of heart failure as reported in Trial By Fire. I was barely four when that happened. I thought she'd died of cancer. I think my mis-remembering is due to an old photograph of her that we had when I was little. Her head was wrapped in a blue bandanna, hiding the hair. To me, it looked like a chemotherapy victim. I don't know whether she smoked or not. Archie did, as did seemingly half of adults back then.

    Archie's new girlfriend moved in with her baby boy (Archie was NOT the bio father- they were different ethnicities!) Archie called her Susan. Her name was Karen. She did not call herself Susan nor did anyone else. He called the baby Joey. His name was David.

    I'd assumed the weird nickname thing was just an Archie quirk until, decades later, I heard about Dave Stone working at the Station. (He was married to my cousin at the time.) My Dad said, "They call him Scooter." Meaning Mike & Jeff D.
    After the fire, I read an article referring to Mike's first wife as Judi "Heather" Derderian. Yup, 'cause we all know that Heather is the common nickname for Judi. Ha. That gave me further evidence that the sons continued the nickname thing.

    I asked Mom what she thought, since Scooter is more of an actual nickname than Susan, Joey and Heather. A "Derderian nickname" for Dave would be more like Jason, wouldn't it? She said that she thought Scooter was indeed a "Derderian nickname."

    I'm stumped by the name of Sam/Jake Derderian, one of Jeff's 22-year-old twin sons. He was called Sam when he was a baby. I found that hilarious when I heard, because the Derderians had a horse of a dog named Sam when I was a tiny little girl. He was half Irish Wolfhound, half Great Dane if memory serves.

    Sam/Jake's brother, Max, was the small-time child actor. But even Sam/Jake got a small billing under the name Jake Derderian in a local RI web series that his mother and brother also took part in c. 2012. You can find them on IMDb.com.
    His profile from Cornell University has the name Jake Raymond Derderian: https://cornellbigred.com/sports/foo...erderian/53897
    Doesn't really flow as a name that a mother would choose for her child. Jacob Raymond and Samuel Raymond do.
    Last edited by RodentLady; 11-25-2020 at 09:22 AM. Reason: typos

  23. #1622
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    Something interesting (to me at least): The walk in cooler was pretty much left untouched by the fire. See in the top left corner (when facing the front of the building). 10 people died outside/around the door. It's a pity they didn't or couldn't find the door and hide inside (like the Cocoanut Grove fire).
    Click image for larger version. 

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  24. #1623
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    Yoyoyo - that's an intriguing idea that youyouyou---- raise about the possibility of surviving the fire inside the walk-in cooler.

    We know the dart room had swinging double-doors in its southeast corner. Through them was the storage room. And if you entered the single door at the rear of the storage room, you were inside the cooler--which had been switched off as long as anyone could remember. Basically, it had turned into just another area for storage, and employees remembered seeing paint cans and lighting fixtures.

    In the pre-show tape, we see Mike Jandron "performing" a set-up shot for Butler--right? He emerges from the storage room via the double-doors hugging two cases of beer and winds his way to the back bar (with Julie Mellini). Both of The Station's bars had limited cooler capacity, but with the re-stocking efforts of someone like Jandron they could keep pace with the cold bottled-beer demands of a big show.

    Anyway, Dave Fravala did once tell me that the walk-in cooler--in retrospect--might very well have saved lives. He said that back in the day they used to sneak inside there to smoke weed.

    Survivor Stephen Eldridge saw Dr. Metal in the storage room as conditions were becoming very dire. So it's frequently assumed that he was one of the ten victims found there.

  25. #1624
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    Rodentlady - Thatís very interesting about the Derderians and their love of nicknaming everyone.
    You must know way more about the fire than your sister, who, youíve said, got out the front relatively early. Did she stay at the fire scene very long?

  26. #1625
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    Quote Originally Posted by billoween View Post
    Did she stay at the fire scene very long?
    Sister and her boyfriend/husband fled the hell out of there and have regretted it ever since. I don't think they can cope with knowing any trivia. I saw in a photo that they have a big, red fire extinguisher right on the kitchen counter next to the stove. Not the common little one. Who does that?

    Quote Originally Posted by billoween View Post
    Rodentlady - That’s very interesting about the Derderians and their love of nicknaming everyone.
    I had to preface our discussion of Trial By Fire by explaining that I slightly knew several of the book's characters in real life when I was young. My mind was constantly editing it as I read- sometimes adding in more info than what was on the page and sometimes correcting it.

    One example: As editor of the Providence Journal, Joel Rawson was written as the arch enemy of the Derderians. I don't remember Rawson's job. But I slightly knew the whole Rawson family in the mid 80s. His elder daughter, Emily, and I shared a best friend, Stephanie.
    The book mentioned Rawson's sons, Gary and "Stephan." I thought, 'No. STEPHEN.' He was known as Stephen. If a group of kids had included both a Stephan and a Stephanie, we all would have been making fun of them.
    (It's entirely possible that his real first name is in fact Stephan, but I only knew him in the Stephen stage. On one of those peoplefinder sites, his name is Stephen but his aliases include Steve, Steven and Stephan.)

    This is page 33. Scott James said that both "Stephan" Rawson and David Stone were 33 at the time of the fire. They were 32. Either he lied to insert extra 33s or he made two mistakes. Neither conclusion is comforting.

    The original 3 Derderian brothers were approximately 6-12 years older than me, so I had always been too young to have anything in common with them. I was probably 10ish the last time I saw one of them in real life. After that, I would describe my memory of Archie to people as "that mafia guy." That was my childhood impression of him.

  27. #1626
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    Quote Originally Posted by billoween View Post
    Yoyoyo - that's an intriguing idea that youyouyou---- raise about the possibility of surviving the fire inside the walk-in cooler.

    Survivor Stephen Eldridge saw Dr. Metal in the storage room as conditions were becoming very dire. So it's frequently assumed that he was one of the ten victims found there.
    Billoween, this is in a witness statement? Could you point me in the direction of wherever the info is from? Thanks in advance.

  28. #1627
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    Trial By Fire review

    I have finished reading the new book Trial By Fire by Scott James. The short review: it is similar to Killer Show and talks about the Station Fire, but is primarily meant to tell the Derderians' side of the story, never before told. And one of its goals seems to be to exonerate them of any wrongdoing, despite the fact that they both received prison sentences (Jeff's was suspended so only Michael did prison time). However one of the assertions seems clearly false: the book claims there were 355 people in the club when the fire started, less than the newly rated capacity of 404.

    Before I discuss the overcrowding, I'll start by saying this book was very well written. It's on par with Killer Show for describing the fire and its effect on survivors and their families. That's no small accomplishment. It's also nice that it includes updates to the present day, including the Station Fire Memorial and even discussion of The Guest List documentary. And it did give me new insight on the Derderians. I give them more benefit of the doubt than before reading it. In particular, they wouldn't have necessarily known the foam they purchased was flammable; according to the book, the industry standard was that all foam purchased as "sound foam" should be the flame resistant type.

    The author goes through the accusations against the Derderians one by one and tries to disprove them all. Unfortunately, this dogged determination backfires when trying to deny there was overcrowding. The book tries to establish that the Providence Journal was adversarial and led the effort to ID people in the building, in an attempt to cast blame on the Derderians. And therefore it claims that their total headcount of 462 is suspect. Instead, the author discusses the "clicker" that Andrea Mancini used at the door. Jeff Derderian checked with her about 10:00 and she claimed about 250 people had come in by then. (Note: that proves nothing about the headcount at 11:07.) Finally, in the last chapter the author makes his big reveal: he says that a plaque at the Station Fire Memorial gives a final headcount of 355. And he notes that this is less than the 404 rated capacity.

    The only problem is that there is a completely independent and authoritative source that disputes this: the police investigation's list of individuals in the club at the time of the fire. The spreadsheet on the Google drive called People Inside Station.xls lists 458 people. And I double checked the Witness Statements, and every one of the 358 survivors on that list made a witness statement to police establishing they were in the club when the fire started. I don't know where the 355 number came from, but that plaque needs to be updated. Could someone upload a picture of this plaque?

    Anyway, for the author's claim to be true, that would mean 458 - 355 = 103 people had to have lied on witness statements to police. A bold assertion, for which he gives no evidence. And he can't claim ignorance of the official list. This list was on the hard drive I obtained from the RI Attorney General's office, which I put on the Google drive we use for our research on this forum. Meanwhile, the author says on p. 333 that he also received his own copy of the 170 GB hard drive, so he had the same list and witness statements.

    A final note. The author suggests that the Derderians never intended anyone to get hurt or killed. However another document on the Google drive disputes this. The Great White contract with the Station (shown here) for their 2003 show lists the capacity of the Station as 550.* (I'm not the first to notice this. The 550 number is also cited on p. 17 of Killer Show.) Therefore the Derderians clearly intended to fill their club over the rated capacity of 404 in order to bring in national acts to their club. The overcrowding which they intended to occur led to deaths and injuries the night of the fire. Therefore I believe their prison sentences were justified.

    * Update: The Trial By Fire book does mention the 550 number on p. 190, but dismisses it by saying it might be aspirational for a night's total attendance, but was an exaggeration. However what's important is that this number sets the limit expected on a busy night, and the official headcount of 458 is the result: an overcrowded nightclub, one of the ingredients that led to disaster and death that night.

  29. #1628
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    Yoyoyo - Here you go:

    óEldridge, Stephen J.
    *WWPD interview on 2-21-03
    *RISP interview on 5-1-03
    *Barylick mention of interviews - page 95

  30. #1629
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    I agree, dionyzus. I waited for the author's evidence about the low attendance with an open mind, but he never presented anything of substance.

    1. He claimed that well over 100 people lied about being at the club because the state was notorious for having corrupt residents who did things in an underhanded manner. He then admitted that those same corrupt, lying people chose NOT to participate in any of the lawsuits. He used that point to make his case, I think it worked against him. Surely such amoral liars would WANT free money! They were happy to lie in sworn statements but suddenly grew a conscience when payouts were on offer?

    2. The author said that the 355 number on the plaque must have been arrived at by the memorial fund members because they were in a position to have the best information. With all of the time he spent with Gina Russo over the years, why not just ask her what that info was?

  31. #1630
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    Quote Originally Posted by RodentLady View Post
    I had to preface our discussion of Trial By Fire by explaining that I slightly knew several of the book's characters in real life when I was young. My mind was constantly editing it as I read- sometimes adding in more info than what was on the page and sometimes correcting it.
    .
    I know exactly how you feel (felt)
    While reading Gina's book it was so surreal reading about people and events that happened years before the fire.
    (no correcting)

  32. #1631
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    Hey Bill, I made it!

    Hi all, been following this thread for a long time and have had a correspondence with Billoween for a while discussing the case.

    I saw mentioned earlier some way to try and generate higher quality versions of the videos we have. I have done some experiments with using AI to enhance some of the videos we have, with mixed results. Happy to send any of my experiments to anyone who would like to see!

  33. #1632
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    Welcome to the forum JXG, make sure to read the FAQs at the top of the page and if you have questions or need help please let us know. Enjoy your stay and have fun.
    No More Stolen Sisters.

  34. #1633
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    ĎSup Pks?

    Wow JAX! Welcome mat is out. Donít be shy about linking us to what you worked on. (I saw one sequence and if I know the crowd here, itíll be appreciated.)

  35. #1634
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    Quote Originally Posted by JXG999 View Post
    Hey Bill, I made it!

    Hi all, been following this thread for a long time and have had a correspondence with Billoween for a while discussing the case.

    I saw mentioned earlier some way to try and generate higher quality versions of the videos we have. I have done some experiments with using AI to enhance some of the videos we have, with mixed results. Happy to send any of my experiments to anyone who would like to see!
    JXG, would love to see. Could you upload your vids to DropBox? Thanks for your work.

    And thanks Billoween for info.

  36. #1635
    Join Date
    Nov 2020
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    10
    Hi all thanks good to be here. I will work on getting them onto Dropbox. The algorithm isn't perfect and can lead to mistakes and artefacts coming through. The source videos are SO poor as well it was a struggle to do much of anything at all. My early attempts lead to a sort of washed out look and the faces of the people looked sort of ethereal/within the uncanny valley which considering many of them sadly passed away weirded me out a bit. I will try and get some of my attempts up though later

  37. #1636
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    Oct 2020
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    15
    JXG, I cannot speak for everyone, but personally, I understand the difficultness of posting such a video -- I hope to think that all of us here feel the gravity of what took place that night, even with the limited video/audio we have. The limited visualizations we have do help for us to better comprehend the whole impact of the event, I believe. For me, it's really that I just wish to try to understand what happened that fateful night.

  38. #1637
    I talked a little with this guy in Reddit about a week ago and to me, it sounds like he is telling the story from the Derdarians perspective.

  39. #1638
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    bustakita, I'm seeing a blank post from today with your name on it. It's after post 1636 but has no sequential number, no join date and no number of "Posts."

  40. #1639
    Quote Originally Posted by RodentLady View Post
    bustakita, I'm seeing a blank post from today with your name on it. It's after post 1636 but has no sequential number, no join date and no number of "Posts."
    Im not sure why. However I had mentioned in that post that i spoke with that author of the book on Reddit and questioned where did he get his info from.

  41. #1640
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
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    Huh, weird glitch! I also see the same thing from pkstracy on what would have been the third post on this page, from November 15th. But she's a mod, so I figured she has the ability to delete posts.

    It's NOT a case of the dark/light background glitch that has been discussed. The box is completely collapsed with no room for any content. Now your post is #1638 in this thread, so this response from me should be 1639. I imagine that means everyone else is up to post 1641.

  42. #1641
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
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    Florida
    Posts
    1,297
    Hi - I used to follow this thread quite a bit, but I lagged off. Nice to see that you are getting so much new information. I still stay in touch with Gina Gauvin. She helped me a lot with my bearded dragons. She is amazing. She can make beautiful artwork with her non-dominate right hand because her left arm had to get amputated.
    The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

  43. #1642
    Join Date
    May 2013
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    Texas
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    23
    Quote Originally Posted by dionyzus View Post
    Finally, in the last chapter the author makes his big reveal: he says that a plaque at the Station Fire Memorial gives a final headcount of 355. And he notes that this is less than the 404 rated capacity.
    And don't forget the occupancy limit of 404 was not in compliance with the fire code. That figure was based on the entire club being standing room only, which the fire code does not permit. (The fire code says only areas immediately adjacent to an exit can be standing room only.) The true maximum occupancy of The Station with all tables and chairs removed was 317, the figure dictated in December 1999.

  44. #1643
    Join Date
    Nov 2020
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    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ogmr2tzkyn...t%204.mp4?dl=0

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/6s254ji183...t%201.mp4?dl=0

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/i5r5s0h7mm...otage.mp4?dl=0

    Hi all, dropbox links to some experiments above. I hope they are useful, although I know they are nowhere near perfect, i'm not a pro! If someone has anything in higher quality id be happy to give it a go.

  45. #1644
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    Sep 2012
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    Florida
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    Watching all of that makes me so sad to see the people before the fire. You know what is going to happen to them. I wonder if John Barylick will ever write another book. I like his book, but I wish that there were some errors corrected. It has been said so many times that Jen Choquette is the bartender at the beginning and not Dina DeMaio like he stated. A little bit of information - Nancy Noyse is the lady at the bar talking about the change that was left as a tip. She ended up getting married in front of a volcano. She said that it was kind of ironic that she was in the fire then got married in front of a volcano. She was burned, but lived.
    The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

  46. #1645
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
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    Ridgefield, CT
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    176
    Well, Dion quite accurately covered the biggest problems with the Scott James book--at least for my money. So I'll avoid treading the same ground, especially with regards to his very rational analysis of The Station's floating capacity limits and the reality of the 462 patrons being present on ignition.

    Instead, I'm offering a nit-picky list of the other problems I had with "Trial By Fire." (Yes, to be fair, there were things to admire, like his interview with Barry Warner.)


    1.) While the Phil Barr story was interesting--and somewhat inspiring--it suffered from being so doled out; maybe "milked" is what I want to say. Especially given that there are a multitude of far more dramatic survivor stories he had his choice of. I couldn't help but feel he'd settled on Barr only because that was who he had gained the most access to.

    2.) Way too much of his Gina Russo account had already been told by her in her book, "From The Ashes." (2010)

    3.) James doesn't always accurately describe The Station's structure. For example, he calls the single mid-hallway door "a set of swinging doors." Furthermore, he refers to the hallway as a 3-foot passageway; it was actually 6-feet wide. Also, he claims that the person we see running from the building on fire "came from a side door." No, she ran out the front doors.

    4.) James has Tracy King saving people from outside The Station; all accounts have him saving folks from positions INSIDE the club.

    5.) The author misrepresents the whole Julie Mellini/cash drawer story. We know from testimony that the cash register drawer, containing $1,233, was recovered in snow behind The Station.

    James: "[Jeff Derderian] grabbed the cash drawer and tip jar [from Mellini] and tossed them in the snow."

    Mellini: "I ran into my boss and he took the register [drawer]. [Then] he left with it for less than a minute."

    6.) Scott James never mentions that one of the first things Jeff Derderian did was to move his new Mercedes. (Gershelis interview.)

    7.) It never gets mentioned that many of the rescuers at the bar windows reported seeing Jeff Derderian planted at Knight's Nissan dealership, and talking non-stop on a cell phone he'd borrowed from former bouncer, Mario Giamei. (It was returned to Giamei 3 days and many phone calls later.)


    Maybe because I've dwelt on this tragedy for so long now, the material seemed like another rehash, and was rarely surprising. Yeah, unfortunately I found the book rather boring over all, and that's why I can't spend any more time on it in this post.

    Wow, I even sound harsh to myself now.

  47. #1646
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
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    Excellent analysis, billoween! The author's version of the cash drawer story was pathetic. It seems that he was tasked to defend every single bad deed that the brothers were accused of, even when there was absolutely nothing to defend them with.

    He admitted that a few previous instances of live pyro happened during their ownership of the club- But oh well, the bands had not been given permission. He admitted that the foam had been spray painted (even mentioning it contained glitter; that was a new detail for me) but declined to explain how insanely flammable spray paint is, which everyone with common sense already knows.

    In Killer Show, one of Barylick's constant themes was pointing out how "working class" all of the patrons were. In Trial By Fire, Scott James went with the slant that the Derderian family was "modest." It's a flat out lie unless contrasting them to billionaires who own mansions in Newport. A "modest" Rhode Islander does not own a small yacht! Nor have an oval/kidney shaped inground pool with a soft padded liner decorated with a huge, bold artistic design on the bottom and individual tiles around the pool instead of plain concrete. Archie already earned those luxuries when his sons were small. I don't know why that line about their ancestors being so poor that they rinsed and reused paper coffee filters was left in the book. So what? I've done that.

    The brothers drove for four hours in the rain in a two-door car to go see Matt Lauer. Good grief! Why not say that they walked for five miles barefoot in the snow!

  48. #1647
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Tulsa, OK
    Posts
    210
    Great discussion from you all. Lol RL, that's true, the new book totally minimizes the cash drawer incident. It makes it seem that Jeff just turned and dropped it in the snow. In actuality people were dying, but at that moment Jeff thought it more important to stash it some distance away in a safe place behind the club, according to Killer Show p. 95.

    Trial By Fire also minimizes the Derderians' lack of workers comp insurance on their employees. He said it was common practice to not carry it in RI at the time. In other words he says that since everyone was doing it, that makes it ok. No, it doesn't.

    WineAndKerosene makes a good point that even the 404 capacity limit wasn't legally sound, since it makes the entire building "standing room." Only parts of the building near an exit can be termed standing room, per p. 44 of Killer Show. The real number was 317. But again that argument is largely moot since the official headcount at ignition was 458, or 462 according to ProJo. Beyond any doubt it was overcrowded which led to deaths and injuries, and the club owners were rightfully held responsible for that.

    Finally Billoween makes a good point that the focus on Phil Barr was milking it.. I would agree with that assessment. There were many other survivors with stories to tell. But that's merely a deduction for style points.. I believe our real beef is the narrative the author wanted to present, while glossing over or disputing confirmed facts like the overcrowding, that were in opposition to that narrative.

  49. #1648
    Join Date
    Nov 2020
    Posts
    10
    All really good points! Seems like there was a bit of an agenda with the new book and was mostly rehashed.

    I managed with great effort to find a better copy of the 13 min video with the red writing from a deleted youtube video. I will have a go at clearing that up (its by no means GOOD quality, but better than is up now).

  50. #1649
    Haven't gotten around to watching it yet, but here's an hour-long interview with the author of Trial By Fire - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOp4TTNFEOo

  51. #1650
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
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    San Diego CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by bustakita View Post
    Im not sure why. However I had mentioned in that post that i spoke with that author of the book on Reddit and questioned where did he get his info from.
    Hi Bustakita it shows you deleted that post, I went ahead and reversed the delete if you want it to remain so let me know and I'll delete it. As far as my post goes I did delete mine.
    Last edited by pkstracy; 12-12-2020 at 06:21 PM.
    No More Stolen Sisters.

  52. 12-18-2020, 09:47 AM
    Reason
    Duplicate.

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