Aviation

[Barbossa]

Barbossa's picture definitely makes one realize just how BIG the 747 really is. Can you imagine the wake turbulence created by the 747?

I was thinking the same thing. Better the Cessna take off/land in front of the 747 than behind it. (Though I believe aircraft have to wait a certain number of minutes after a "heavy" has landed due to the wake turbulence etc.)

[Barbossa]

Pre 9/11 before they were so paranoid about it my buddy and I would end the afternoon after fishing in Boston harbor by anchoring right off the end of one of the major runways at Logan. I would say about 1000 yards off shore.
We wanted to be dead center underneath the planes taking off. The big 747s in addition to destroying our hearing would actually create a waterspout off the tip of each wing that would follow the plane out about 2500 yards. They would be about 15 feet high. It was so cool! Now we would never be able to do anything like that.
Regards,
Mary

Yeah, 9/11 has screwed things up for us in a thousand ways. I used to plane spot at San Diego Lindbergh Field and LAX, you used to be able to hang out right next to the fences. Not any more.

[duster]

Wtf is wrong with people?!?
That's not a pank, it's attempted murder.

[Barbossa]

I grew up in Inglewood, CA and lived by the north runway of LAX. So the planes would be real low over my house (I was a few miles from the runway). I'm surprised my hearing isn't worst than it is now. One of the hightlights was when the Vietnam war ended and C-5's were coming in. These things were huge, bigger than 747's. You could hear their screaming engines and it was very odd sound compared the normal commercial jets. It really sounded like a woman screaming! All of us would run out of houses when we heard them coming. Very cool to see these babies coming in.

Edited to add that they may have not been C-5's, but were told by neighbors that they were. Trying to find a picture of one of the '70's, but can't find one that looked like what I saw. Maybe someone can shed light on what it really was.

We get the occasional C5 taking off out of Miramar MCAS. When they head east they fly by my house. I always know when one's coming because the turbofans have a sound almost like a prop plane. They're so big that they look like they're going to stall and fall out of the sky. I'm rather glad that they don't fly directly overhead!

[Barbossa]

I see USAF C-5Bs on occasion at MEM. We departed behind a C-5 about two weeks ago and the wake turbulence is unbelievable, even with wake turbulence separation. From this point forward, I am going to request additional wake turbulence separation if I am to depart behind a C-5.

Here is a nice video of a USAF C-5A departing Runway 13L at JFK (aircraft is obviously having some problems with the right main landing gear, as it does not retract entirely). Those General Electric TF39-GE-1 turbofans sound great!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldP5fbPh5Lc

Even though I have been flying since the age of 16, airplanes such as the C-5 Galaxy still amaze me.

Cool video, I wonder what they did about the stuck landing gear? I'm amazed that planes as large as a C5 take off empty, much less loaded with cargo.

[STsFirstmate]

One of the great things about living in Queens back in the day was going to the beach at Ries Park and if you were laying on the sand about 5:30 pm you hear a totally unique rumble.
It was louder than and different than a commercial jet. It was the Concord taking off for Europe from JFK. It flew right over the waters right off the beach. It was too cool for school. I always regretted never flying on it.
Regards,
Mary

[Buttercup]

We get the occasional C5 taking off out of Miramar MCAS. When they head east they fly by my house. I always know when one's coming because the turbofans have a sound almost like a prop plane. They're so big that they look like they're going to stall and fall out of the sky. I'm rather glad that they don't fly directly overhead!

I remember how slow they would fly over our house compared to commercial jets. Very unnerving to watch and exciting at the same time.

[Barbossa]

One of the great things about living in Queens back in the day was going to the beach at Ries Park and if you were laying on the sand about 5:30 pm you hear a totally unique rumble.
It was louder than and different than a commercial jet. It was the Concord taking off for Europe from JFK. It flew right over the waters right off the beach. It was too cool for school. I always regretted never flying on it.
Regards,
Mary

Back in the 80's there was an airshow at Brown Field in San Diego. One of the featured planes was the Concorde, you could get a 1 hour ride out to sea and back for $800 bucks! Seeing as the Concorde is out of service and a one-way trans-Atlantic flight cost something like $3000, I really regret not trying to get a seat on that demo flight.

[joS3ph]

Cool video, I wonder what they did about the stuck landing gear? I'm amazed that planes as large as a C5 take off empty, much less loaded with cargo.

Barbossa, on the Lockheed C-5, if the main landing gear (MLG) cannot be extended by the normal method, an emergency extend system using electric motors is provided. When the emergency extend system is selected, the main drive input shafts and hydraulic motors are prevented from rotating by hydraulically actuated brakes and the electric motors drive the gear boxes using the differential principle.

Again, on the Lockheed C-5, once the gear has retracted, the landing gear position indicator displays a green indication. While the landing gear is moving from extended to retracted, the landing gear indicator will display "in-transit." Extending the landing gear displays red on the landing gear position indicator.

In regards to the C-5A (as shown on the video), I'm sure the landing gear indicator remained either red or "in-transit" for that particular boogie. I'm sure they handled this situation by simply extending the landing gear, verifying it is locked in the extended position, and then returning to the airport.

[Buttercup]

Did the C-5 ever have 3 engines on each wing? This is what I saw in the early '70's. That's why I'm wondering if what I saw was really a C-5 or another aircraft.

[Barbossa]

Barbossa, on the Lockheed C-5, if the main landing gear (MLG) cannot be extended by the normal method, an emergency extend system using electric motors is provided. When the emergency extend system is selected, the main drive input shafts and hydraulic motors are prevented from rotating by hydraulically actuated brakes and the electric motors drive the gear boxes using the differential principle.

Again, on the Lockheed C-5, once the gear has retracted, the landing gear position indicator displays a green indication. While the landing gear is moving from extended to retracted, the landing gear indicator will display "in-transit." Extending the landing gear displays red on the landing gear position indicator.

In regards to the C-5A (as shown on the video), I'm sure the landing gear indicator remained either red or "in-transit" for that particular boogie. I'm sure they handled this situation by simply extending the landing gear, verifying it is locked in the extended position, and then returning to the airport.

Thanks for the info!

[Barbossa]

Did the C-5 ever have 3 engines on each wing? This is what I saw in the early '70's. That's why I'm wondering if what I saw was really a C-5 or another aircraft.

I think a 6-engine plane was proposed for the C5 program, but it was never developed. The Russian AN-225 has six engines, only one ever flew I think:

[Buttercup]

Then it wasn't a C-5 that I saw. They flew into LAX several times around in early '70's. Wonder if it may have been a B-52? Need to do some research to see if I can find a picture.

[joS3ph]

Lockheed did propose a six-engine CX-4 (i.e., C-5 with six engines) in 1962, but the proposed six-engine design was rejected and none were actually manufactured, because it was not viewed as a significant advancement over the C-141 Starlifter.

[Jerseysucks]

Hey Joe, what was your most terrifying moment during a flight other than the laser pointers?
Landing gear not come down? Smoke in the cockpit? Bird hit?

[Barbossa]

Then it wasn't a C-5 that I saw. They flew into LAX several times around in early '70's. Wonder if it may have been a B-52? Need to do some research to see if I can find a picture.

The '52 doesn't have six, but eight engines!

[Buttercup]

The '52 doesn't have six, but eight engines!

That is pretty close to what I may have seen. My memory has been foggy lately since turning 50 . The wings were on top of the body like this.

If you look real close, you may see Slim Pickens trying to get that bomb to drop in that picture!

[Barbossa]

That is pretty close to what I may have seen. My memory has been foggy lately since turning 50 . The wings were on top of the body like this.

If you look real close, you may see Slim Pickens trying to get that bomb to drop in that picture!

Ahhh, Dr. Strangelove. One of the best movies of all time.

[lmphillips2000]

Boeing wins tanker refueling contract over airbus. It's convoluted both airbus and Boeing have been going at it for a decade. The big concern? Why is a foreign company building aircraft for the U.S. Airforce? The upshot? Jobs stay in the U.S.

http://www.king5.com/news/business/B...116848933.html

[Barbossa]

Boeing wins tanker refueling contract over airbus. It's convoluted both airbus and Boeing have been going at it for a decade. The big concern? Why is a foreign company building aircraft for the U.S. Airforce? The upshot? Jobs stay in the U.S.

http://www.king5.com/news/business/B...116848933.html

I can't believe the U.S. even considered a foreign vendor (Airbus) for the tanker contract.

[lmphillips2000]

I totally agree. It's a no brainer! You would think for simple National Security issues that they would be built here in the U.S. and not over seas! We have several manufacturers in the U.S. who could bid on the contract. Lockheed Martin for one.

[Barbossa]

I totally agree. It's a no brainer! You would think for simple National Security issues that they would be built here in the U.S. and not over seas! We have several manufacturers in the U.S. who could bid on the contract. Lockheed Martin for one.

Maybe they played the Airbus chip to force Boeing to lower their bid.

[joS3ph]

Jerseysucks:

My most terrifying moment occurred early one morning operating between OMA-MEM. After hand flying the climb out, I quickly engaged the autopilot. The flight was fairly routine all the way up to FL100 (i.e., Flight Level 100 or 10,000 feet), when flex thrust was switched to normal climb.

I reached into my flight bag and to my complete dismay, I could not find my copy of USA Today! Frantically, I searched my side of the flight deck to no avail. Being a good, modern airline pilot, and utilizing CRM (cockpit resource management), I included the First Officer in the search.

Just as it seemed that all hope was lost, I caught a glimpse of the sports section smiling at me from below, in between the QRH and PPAS manuals. Memory items complete, I deployed my copy of USA Today and all was well on the flight deck again.

*****

Seriously...my most unnerving moment occurred one afternoon departing MEM. Our plane for this particular flight was a McDonnell Douglas MD-11F (FedEx N601FE). It had been raining and storming most of the day and visibility was limited. After climbing through to 5,000 feet, we flew directly into windshear. We dropped like a rock from 5,000+ feet to approximately 3,500 feet. "Whoop whoop...pull up pull up! Bank angle, bank angle!," were the synthesized messages we received from the enhanced ground proximity warning system (EPGWS).

On the way down, the airplane was essentially 45 degrees RWD (right-wing down) and we were still losing altitude. At this time we lost all of our altitude indications in the cockpit, so we had absolutely no idea what our altitude was. For several seconds, there was a complete disruption of power to the primary flight display (PFD) and navigation display (ND) on both sides of the instrument panel. Power returned seconds later and I recovered the aircraft to wings-level, applied maximum thrust (power) and we resumed our climb. After establishing a positive rate of climb, I asked ATC for an altitude readout.

We climbed through to approximately 6,000 feet, but our intermittent instrumentation problems continued. At 6,000 feet we lost the all-color weather radar (remember the thunderstorms?) and our transponder. Due to the severe jolt/loss of altitude (and my concerns over the structural integrity of our airplane) and instrumentation problems, I declared an emergency and we returned to MEM and made an overweight landing on Runway 36R.

Photograph of the actual incident airplane (FedEx McDonnell Douglas MD-11F N601FE):

[Jerseysucks]

WOW losing your USA Today, you must have almost shit your pants.
I tell you with the wind shear I would have had an instant heart attack.
Hope there wasn't too many of those in the past or upcoming, who would answer questions on this thread?

[joS3ph]

WOW losing your USA Today, you must have almost shit your pants.
I tell you with the wind shear I would have had an instant heart attack.
Hope there wasn't too many of those in the past or upcoming, who would answer questions on this thread?

Yeah, I didn't think I was going to make it through the day misplacing my newspaper!

In regards to the windshear incident, losing that much altitude is frightening if you have never experienced it before (and it is *always* unnerving to any pilot, no matter how many times you have been involved in a similar incident). Luckily, this wasn't my first time and I managed to recover from the unusual attitude. My First Officer on the that particular flight almost shit his pants.

Windshear Detection

Luckily, modern airplanes are equipped with windshear detection systems. The windshear alert and guidance system (WAGS) provides detection, alerting and guidance through windshear. On takeoff, the WAGS is available from 80 knots to 1500 feet RA (radio altitude). On approach, the WAGS is available from 1500 feet RA down to 50 feet RA. The WAGS is part of the automatic flight system (AFS) and receives data from the air data inertial reference system (ADIRS), flight management system (FMS), and other AFS components. When the WAGS determines that the hazardous windshear condition exists, it provides visual warnings on the primary flight display (PFD) and flight mode annunciator (FMA) and aural warnings through the central aural warning system (CAWS). Flight director (FD) and autopilot (A/P) functions are provided through the AFS.

[John Trim]

One of my favorite places here in the Bay Area is a small aviation museum at the Oakland Airport. It's called The Oakland Aviation Museum. I try to visit at least a couple times a year. They have some very cool planes there including a fullsize replica of a Wright Bros. Model B. They have a Russian Mig - 15 and a F-14 Tomcat. The crown jewel of their collection is a Short Bros. Solent MK III. This is a sea plane typical of the types of planes that flew from the west coast to the orient. If your ever in the Bay Area you should check this place out.

http://www.oaklandaviationmuseum.org/

[duchessmary]

Thanks for posting, John. Cool!!!

[duchessmary]

What exactly is a transponder and where is it located on an aircraft? I used to work for a major trucking company and they looked like attennae on each side of the cab. Is it the same type of thing?

[joS3ph]

What exactly is a transponder and where is it located on an aircraft? I used to work for a major trucking company and they looked like attennae on each side of the cab. Is it the same type of thing?

Mary:

To make it possible for an air traffic control (ATC) to know "who is who and where" on his radar display, aircraft are equipped with a device called a transponder. The transponder transmits a four-digit code as a reply to an interrogation by a radar station. The four-digit code is called a "squawk" code. Each digit of a squawk varies from "0" to "7"only (i.e., octal numeral system). There is never an "8" or "9" in a transponder code. By combining four numbers from "0" to "7" ("0000" - "7777"), 4096 different squawk codes are available. Pilots will select a particular "non-discrete" transponder code such as "2000" to show their presence to ATC before they have been able to make contact. A "non-discrete code" is a set of four numbers that may be used by several aircraft in the same area.

By making a particular aircraft squawk a specific "discrete" code, the controllers can easily see "who is who" among other aircraft. "Discrete code" means that a particular squawk code has been assigned to one particular aircraft only by ATC. The squawk code is also used as a primary means to "correlate" or link a flight plan to a specific aircraft. If a pilot has filed a Flight Plan and received a discrete squawk code, flight plan information such as aircraft call sign, aircraft type and wake turbulence category are shown in the aircraft label on the ATC's Situational Data Display (SDD).

"Mode A" transponders send only the four-digit code that was set by the pilot to the radar antenna. In this case, no altitude information (mode C) is transmitted when a radar station interrogates the transponder

"Mode C" transponders send the four-digit squawk code and the pressure altitude at which the aircraft is flying.

"Mode S" transponders send "Mode A" and "Mode C" information, along with aircraft identification, selected heading, and selected altitude. The additional information can only be decoded by an ATC system that is adapted to do so. "Mode S" stands for "selective interrogation" where every transponder is interrogated separately by each radar station.

Common transponder codes:

1200 - Visual Flight Rules (VFR). This is the standard code used in North American airspace when no other has been assigned.
2000 - The code to be squawked when entering a secondary surveillance radar (SSR) area from a non SSR area.
7500 - Unlawful interference (i.e., aircraft hijacking)
7600 - Lost Communications (i.e., radio failure)
7700 - General Emergency
7777 - Military interception (US/FAA)


Typical Boeing Transponder (console mounted):




Typical commercial aircraft antenna locations:




Sample air traffic control display:

[Barbossa]

Seriously...my most unnerving moment occurred one afternoon departing MEM. Our plane for this particular flight was a McDonnell Douglas MD-11F (FedEx N601FE). It had been raining and storming most of the day and visibility was limited. After climbing through to 5,000 feet, we flew directly into windshear. We dropped like a rock from 5,000+ feet to approximately 3,500 feet. "Whoop whoop...pull up pull up! Bank angle, bank angle!," were the synthesized messages we received from the enhanced ground proximity warning system (EPGWS).

On the way down, the airplane was essentially 45 degrees RWD (right-wing down) and we were still losing altitude. At this time we lost all of our altitude indications in the cockpit, so we had absolutely no idea what our altitude was. For several seconds, there was a complete disruption of power to the primary flight display (PFD) and navigation display (ND) on both sides of the instrument panel. Power returned seconds later and I recovered the aircraft to wings-level, applied maximum thrust (power) and we resumed our climb. After establishing a positive rate of climb, I asked ATC for an altitude readout.

We climbed through to approximately 6,000 feet, but our intermittent instrumentation problems continued. At 6,000 feet we lost the all-color weather radar (remember the thunderstorms?) and our transponder. Due to the severe jolt/loss of altitude (and my concerns over the structural integrity of our airplane) and instrumentation problems, I declared an emergency and we returned to MEM and made an overweight landing on Runway 36R.

I think I'd need a clean change of undies if that happened to me.

Re: overweight landings, are planes allowed to fuel dump?

[Fujicakes]

My most terrifying moment occurred early one morning operating between OMA-MEM. After hand flying the climb out, I quickly engaged the autopilot. The flight was fairly routine all the way up to FL100 (i.e., Flight Level 100 or 10,000 feet), when flex thrust was switched to normal climb.

I reached into my flight bag and to my complete dismay, I could not find my copy of USA Today! Frantically, I searched my side of the flight deck to no avail. Being a good, modern airline pilot, and utilizing CRM (cockpit resource management), I included the First Officer in the search.

Just as it seemed that all hope was lost, I caught a glimpse of the sports section smiling at me from below, in between the QRH and PPAS manuals. Memory items complete, I deployed my copy of USA Today and all was well on the flight deck again.

Seriously...my most unnerving moment occurred one afternoon departing MEM. Our plane for this particular flight was a McDonnell Douglas MD-11F (FedEx N601FE). It had been raining and storming most of the day and visibility was limited. After climbing through to 5,000 feet, we flew directly into windshear. We dropped like a rock from 5,000+ feet to approximately 3,500 feet. "Whoop whoop...pull up pull up! Bank angle, bank angle!," were the synthesized messages we received from the enhanced ground proximity warning system (EPGWS).

On the way down, the airplane was essentially 45 degrees RWD (right-wing down) and we were still losing altitude. At this time we lost all of our altitude indications in the cockpit, so we had absolutely no idea what our altitude was. For several seconds, there was a complete disruption of power to the primary flight display (PFD) and navigation display (ND) on both sides of the instrument panel. Power returned seconds later and I recovered the aircraft to wings-level, applied maximum thrust (power) and we resumed our climb. After establishing a positive rate of climb, I asked ATC for an altitude readout.

We climbed through to approximately 6,000 feet, but our intermittent instrumentation problems continued. At 6,000 feet we lost the all-color weather radar (remember the thunderstorms?) and our transponder. Due to the severe jolt/loss of altitude (and my concerns over the structural integrity of our airplane) and instrumentation problems, I declared an emergency and we returned to MEM and made an overweight landing on Runway 36R.

Holy crap! I'd die of a heart attack!

[John Trim]

Joe, Your thoughts on Captain Sullenberger and US Airways flight 1549.

[Miho]

Can I get your opinion on who you think was responsible for the Tinerfe crash?

[Jerseysucks]

Can I get your opinion on who you think was responsible for the Tinerfe crash?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsaWezlgBWA


This is a mock up video of what happened i Spain

[Fujicakes]

What about your opinion on the movie Airplane?

[John Trim]

Thought this might be of some interest.

http://www.kron4.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=402

[Barbossa]

This is cool: one of the coaches of my son's Little League team last year is a Marine Corp. squadron leader and F-18 pilot. The coolest dude you could ever meet. He's coming up on retirement and is studying/training for a job at...FedEx! How cool is that? I told him about joS3ph (not by name, just by description). This coach is actually a bit apprehensive about the transition i.e. going from flying high-performance fighters to large transport aircraft and possibly having to move to Hong Kong as his first assignment. Basically going from head honcho to low guy on the totem pole. It's like any major life change, though, I'm sure he'll do very well if he chooses to go that route. As for me, I'd give up my left testicle to be in his shoes, so I was all wide eyed asking him questions etc.

[joS3ph]

Barbossa, I don't think you would want to give your left nut. I am just getting in, but I will be on later today. I have some catching up to do!

[joS3ph]

Everyone that knows I am a pilot sends me this and I still get a good laugh every time it shows up in my inbox:

Cockpit with Windows Blue Screen of Death errors:



Someone is either very talented with Photoshop or they have too much time on their hands...Goooooo WinDoze!

[joS3ph]

First and foremost, I would like to apologize to Barbossa, Fujicakes, JerseySucks, John Trim, and Miho for my excessive delay in responding to your questions. I made a flight to Anchorage, Alaska (ANC/PANC) Friday, so I was out of town most of the weekend...I didn't forget about you guys and gals!

Prior to our scheduled departure for MEM (home base), our all-weather, color radar stopped working. It ceased to function somewhere between preflight and our scheduled departure time, so the avionics technicians decided to change some equipment out prior to our departure.

Anyway, I just didn't want anyone to think I am normally this slow in responding to questions!

[Barbossa]

Someone is either very talented with Photoshop or they have too much time on their hands...Goooooo WinDoze!

Though it'd be suicide to use Windows as the operating system for aviation software, the notion that the operation of an aircraft is dependent on software gives me the semi-willies. I've designed many microprocessor-based circuit boards that were programmed by armies of software engineers. Murphy's law is strong with software, I trust that avionics companies design in the required redundancy and test the living crud out of their systems.

[joS3ph]

Barbossa:

Feel free to give my email address to your friend who is considering employment with FedEx if you wish. Maybe I can answer some of his questions. He won't have any problems with the transition to cargo aircraft. Like your friend, I was in the military and I flew the F-14B Tomcat and I didn't have any trouble.

In regards to pay, FedEx pays more than most commercial air carriers. He should expect to earn approximately $106.00/hour as a first officer with FedEx. I also have all of the B757, B777, DC-10, MD-10F, and MD-11F aircraft flight manuals, flight crew operating manuals, and training manuals in PDF format. He will really need to study the 20 technical training manuals more than anything else that FedEx will provide.

My email address: MD11F(dot)Captain(at)gmail(dot)com

Remove the (dot) and replace with a period and remove (at) and replace with the "at" symbol, i.e., @. I posted my address with the "dot/at" to prevent automatic harvesting of my email address.

John Trim:

In regards to US Airways Flight 1549, Captain Chesley 'Sully' Sullenberger III, performed the best water landing (ditching) I have ever witnessed. I think his former military training and experience payed off nicely on that particular day. There is no such thing as "luck" when it comes to performing a water landing. Captain Sully remained calm and with his skill, he performed what many pilots probably couldn't pull off as successfully as he did. Captain Sully is a true hero to many...including myself.

Fujicakes:

The movie "Airplane" is a good comedy movie. Leslie Nielsen is a hoot! Like many, the autopilot incident is quite funny. Luckily though, there is no inflatable autopilot.

Miho:

In regards to the Tenerife disaster, the fundamental cause of the accident was Captain Van Zanten, who took off without clearance. Other factors include simultaneous radio transmissions (neither conversation could be heard), fog, use of ambiguous non-standard phrases by the KLM first officer, and Pan Am mistakenly continued to exit C-4 instead of exiting at C-3 as directed.

[Barbossa]

Barbossa:

Feel free to give my email address to your friend who is considering employment with FedEx if you wish. Maybe I can answer some of his questions. He won't have any problems with the transition to cargo aircraft. Like your friend, I was in the military and I flew the F-14B Tomcat and I didn't have any trouble.

In regards to pay, FedEx pays more than most commercial air carriers. He should expect to earn approximately $106.00/hour as a first officer with FedEx. I also have all of the B757, B777, DC-10, MD-10F, and MD-11F aircraft flight manuals, flight crew operating manuals, and training manuals in PDF format. He will really need to study the 20 technical training manuals more than anything else that FedEx will provide.

My email address: MD11F(dot)Captain(at)gmail(dot)com

Very cool, thanks joS3ph! I'll forward your EMAIL address and let him know that he can contact you if he'd like.

Btw: To everyone on this forum/thread, my name is Mick. Feel free to call me this, it's a bit easier to type than Barbossa.

[Barbossa]

First and foremost, I would like to apologize to Barbossa, Fujicakes, JerseySucks, John Trim, and Miho for my excessive delay in responding to your questions. I made a flight to Anchorage, Alaska (ANC/PANC) Friday, so I was out of town most of the weekend...I didn't forget about you guys and gals!

Prior to our scheduled departure for MEM (home base), our all-weather, color radar stopped working. It ceased to function somewhere between preflight and our scheduled departure time, so the avionics technicians decided to change some equipment out prior to our departure.

Anyway, I just didn't want anyone to think I am normally this slow in responding to questions!

No problem, we all know that you're probably flying the Wild Blue Yonder when you've been away for a while. No apologies required.

[duchessmary]

Hi Mick! Somehow that seems to fit you!

[Barbossa]

Hi Mick! Somehow that seems to fit you!

Very nice to meet you!

[Miho]

Miho:

In regards to the Tenerife disaster, the fundamental cause of the accident was Captain Van Zanten, who took off without clearance. Other factors include simultaneous radio transmissions (neither conversation could be heard), fog, use of ambiguous non-standard phrases by the KLM first officer, and Pan Am mistakenly continued to exit C-4 instead of exiting at C-3 as directed.

Ahh you hit my other question on the head. Wasn't C-3 a nearly impossible bank turn for a plane that size and that is why they thought C-4?

[John Trim]

Thanks, JoS3ph. I watched that on the news that day and was very impressed with Capt. Sully. Then they mentioned he was a local boy, from here in the San Francisco Bay Area, I was kind of proud.

[duchessmary]

Oh I didn't know he was from San Francisco!!

[Jerseysucks]

Did anybody ever see that 1980 movie with Cliff Robertson called "The Pilot" about a pilot who's an alcoholic? That was a great movie.