Sid Vicious

[endsleigh03]

Steve Jones has a radio show in Los Angeles and often comments that Malcom McClarron was very tight with the money, never paid musicians, that sort of thing. I'm not saying I know, that's just what I've heard on the radio from the only Sex Pistol who could actually play an instrument. I believe you, because you have a good reputation here, and I am still a Jr. Death Hag, mainly because I do more reading than writing....(I think).

???

[midnitelamp]

paul and glenn could both perform well.

[Warmed Over]

Paul's a good drummer, and didn't Glenn write/co-wrote most of the songs?

[leeny994]

i think glenn played on most of the songs too. i have heard Malcom McClarron was very, well lets just say more of an opportunist and very money greedy more than someone who is in it for the music and the art of it all...

[Jazbabee]

OMG the case there ...Teena Brandon....' partially responsible for her own murder???'

Thats like saying a woman was asking to be raped because she wore a short skirt!

Cherry.....I agree that the thinking with that is twisted. If you go back thru the thread you will see wher I describe some personal run ins with Nancy while in high school in Philadelphia.
Nancy was in a school for emotionally disturbed adolescents. Although I did not know her parents, I had heard that they did care about her, and tried to get her help in every way possible. Her troubles were just so very deep (from birth), and she was living in a time when many of her issues had not yet been recognized.
I can tell you from the run ins I had with her, she was a nasty, vindictive, mean spirited psychotic individual, that was EXTREMELY unpleasant to be around. Whenever my school played theirs in sports, I tried to avoid her at ALL costs, because she would start SERIOUS shit with anybody and everybody, and was extremely violent. So ultimately, and unfortunately it was not a shock to those of us that knew her to have such a sad life, and tragic ending.

[Mamma]

Jaz, thank you for bumping this info.

When you first posted this many weeks ago, I was inspired to buy the book And I Don't Want To Live This Life, again. It had been years since I last read it, and it's interesting how my mind changes as I've had children of my own in the meantime. I'll admit, I was very young the first time I read it, and as often happens, I was defensive of Nancy and the whole punk movement. One of those "Parents just don't understand" sorta things.

But now that I've grown older and had children of my own, I have a lot of sympathy for what Nancy's parents went through, with what little resources they had to work with. I might catch some flack for saying that, but oh well . Her parents were not perfect by any means, and certainly had their share of marital problems they have admitted to. Also, Nancy was on a variety of prescription medications that her parents would take her on and off of, literally overnight. This is NOT good with such powerful medications.

I agree with you, Nancy's problems which had been present since birth, could have easily been maintained in today's modern medicine, diagnosis and all. But back then, the best they could offer was a schizophrenia diagnosis, and high doses of lithium as a treatment. Sounds like the dark ages, doesn't it? And yet it was just a few decades ago this all occured in Nancy's life.

Being wiser now than what I was in the 80's, it's painfully obvious that Nancy looked to drugs to numb her pain. In doing so, she found herself hooked on heroin, which is the devil himself in a compact syringe so to speak. If Nancy had lived, I would imagine her diagnosis would have been possibly bi-polar, with more research being done on her brain when deprived of oxtgen at birth. JMO.

Another interesting observation that was made in the Dr. Baden documentary, is that Nancy was probably Sid's "first". Meaning girlfriend, long term relationship. I mean, they were babies when they met, 19 I think. I would imagine Sid being so young, suddenly an international star, and his background being raised by a heroin addicted mother, Nancy was probably the first long term, steady relationship of any type, which would help explain to fans what Sid actally "saw" in her. I've heard that question often

But anyway, just random observations as usual .

[Jazbabee]

Jaz, thank you for bumping this info.

When you first posted this many weeks ago, I was inspired to buy the book And I Don't Want To Live This Life, again. It had been years since I last read it, and it's interesting how my mind changes as I've had children of my own in the meantime. I'll admit, I was very young the first time I read it, and as often happens, I was defensive of Nancy and the whole punk movement. One of those "Parents just don't understand" sorta things.

But now that I've grown older and had children of my own, I have a lot of sympathy for what Nancy's parents went through, with what little resources they had to work with. I might catch some flack for saying that, but oh well . Her parents were not perfect by any means, and certainly had their share of marital problems they have admitted to. Also, Nancy was on a variety of prescription medications that her parents would take her on and off of, literally overnight. This is NOT good with such powerful medications.

I agree with you, Nancy's problems which had been present since birth, could have easily been maintained in today's modern medicine, diagnosis and all. But back then, the best they could offer was a schizophrenia diagnosis, and high doses of lithium as a treatment. Sounds like the dark ages, doesn't it? And yet it was just a few decades ago this all occured in Nancy's life.

Being wiser now than what I was in the 80's, it's painfully obvious that Nancy looked to drugs to numb her pain. In doing so, she found herself hooked on heroin, which is the devil himself in a compact syringe so to speak. If Nancy had lived, I would imagine her diagnosis would have been possibly bi-polar, with more research being done on her brain when deprived of oxtgen at birth. JMO.

Another interesting observation that was made in the Dr. Baden documentary, is that Nancy was probably Sid's "first". Meaning girlfriend, long term relationship. I mean, they were babies when they met, 19 I think. I would imagine Sid being so young, suddenly an international star, and his background being raised by a heroin addicted mother, Nancy was probably the first long term, steady relationship of any type, which would help explain to fans what Sid actally "saw" in her. I've heard that question often

But anyway, just random observations as usual .

You are quite welcome Mamma. Over the years, I have lost my copy of "And I Don't want to Live This Life". I think I will purchase another copy and read it again. Now that I have my own children, I agree, I will probably read the book in a whole new lihjt.

[cherryghost]

Cherry.....I agree that the thinking with that is twisted. If you go back thru the thread you will see wher I describe some personal run ins with Nancy while in high school in Philadelphia.
Nancy was in a school for emotionally disturbed adolescents. Although I did not know her parents, I had heard that they did care about her, and tried to get her help in every way possible. Her troubles were just so very deep (from birth), and she was living in a time when many of her issues had not yet been recognized.
I can tell you from the run ins I had with her, she was a nasty, vindictive, mean spirited psychotic individual, that was EXTREMELY unpleasant to be around. Whenever my school played theirs in sports, I tried to avoid her at ALL costs, because she would start SERIOUS shit with anybody and everybody, and was extremely violent. So ultimately, and unfortunately it was not a shock to those of us that knew her to have such a sad life, and tragic ending.

Jazbabee, Not sure I know what your saying here, I was just responding to the poor Teena quote! It may have been out of context! I was distracted by the quote and commenting on Teena not Nancy there.

Everything your telling us about Nancy must have been horrible to experience firsthand. I read your post the first time. Any film interviews or footage I saw of her fit you discription perfectly.

Did you think I was defending Nancy? I wasnt a fan so it never occurred to me to do so! She was such a heavy mess I found it hard to empathise with her! I recall it was a shock but no suprise when it all happened!

I was crazy about the Pistols and Nancy not so crazy about

[Jazbabee]

Jazbabee, Not sure I know what your saying here, I was just responding to the poor Teena quote! It may have been out of context! I was distracted by the quote and commenting on Teena not Nancy there.

Everything your telling us about Nancy must have been horrible to experience firsthand. I read your post the first time. Any film interviews or footage I saw of her fit you discription perfectly.

Did you think I was defending Nancy? I wasnt a fan so it never occurred to me to do so! She was such a heavy mess I found it hard to empathise with her! I recall it was a shock but no suprise when it all happened!

I was crazy about the Pistols and Nancy not so crazy about

Sorry about the confusion here Cherry. I was agreeing that the way someone dresses doesn't mean they were asking for it.
I don't believe that Nancy was necessarily asking for it either - it was more a function of her mental state/condition, and lack of an effective treatment at the time. ( And conversely, at the same time, she DID come off like she was asking for it, and was in many physical altercations due to her mouth, demeanor and nasty disposition) I hope I am making a bit more sense here - it is kind of difficult to describe unless you have seen someone act like this firsthand. Sorry if I confused you

[cherryghost]

Yes Jazabee,

its hard to express in context, but yeah I think woman like Nancy and others are provacative, they do go for it and press all the buttons, Nancy was out there and very much asking for it, in a deifant act! She seemed to do it publicly tho where cameras were etc, So she didnt get hurt, yes I think she was doing it for a reason and she was very damaged.I didnt think at the time she came off 'like she was asking for it'
As a feminist at the time I felt she was very much 'asking for it' because she could and she just did. I didnt like because of it but I accepted that there were woman like that out there, and these days OMG so many woman get away with it and so much more.Its very much about the time jazabee as I write this I think time has changed so much since since nancy!

[Hidium]

???

I meant Sid couldn't play, Steve had to record the bass parts... and of course Johnny could sing! My point was that I heard on the radio show hosted by Steve Jones that Malcolm was a tightwad!

[NOVSTORM]

Anyone else catch the TV show on the Biography Channel called "Final 24?" Last night they profiled Sid Vicious and it was said that Sid himself didn't administer the lethal dose - his mother did. And they had a couple of well placed "insiders" to back up the claim.

Interesting!

On Doctor Badens show tonight he said that there was a sucide note left from sid. He said that he and Nancy had a suicide pact and he had to honor it and at the end it said the his mother admitted to buying and delivering those packets of H to him. She committed suiced in 2004.

[NOVSTORM]

okay, enough already. let me give you the facts....Sid was bailed out from Rikers Island for assaulting Todd Smith (brother of punk rocker/poet/icon Patti Smith) in a nightclub in NYC in late '78. while Sid was locked up, he was forced to go cold turkey from heroin. it's rumored that Mick Jagger put up the money for Sid's bail, but is highly unlikely. upon his release, Sid's mom Beverly Ritchie had a welcome home party for Sid at her apt in New York. among the attendees were Jerry Only and Bobby Steel of The Misfits, and Sid's new girlfriend who's name escapes me right now. Beverly also scored some heroin for Sid. when he got the packet of junk from his mom, he injected a pretty good amount, and due to his not having any in months while he was locked up...he OD's on the spot. he was revived and ate a spaghetti dinner with his mom and friends/hanger on's. later Sid nodded out, common among junkies, and was put in his bedroom on the bed by his mom and girlfriend. Beverly, scared that Sid may OD again, put the heroin in her back pocket for safe keeping. later on in the night Sid awoke, and took the heroin from her pocket as she slept on the couch. Sid went into his room and shot the rest up...and OD'd again. he was found the next morning naked on the bed...dead. he was awaiting trial for Nancy's murder at the time of his death. Sid wanted to be buried next to Nancy, but her family refused to give up any information on her final resting place. which is in a Jewish cemetery in Philadelphia, her home town. Sid's ashes were NEVER scattered over her grave. Sid NEVER had a sister (he was an only child). and Sid's mom NEVER injected the fatal dose of heroin into her son's arm. being not only a punk rock fan, but also a music historian, you can rest assured that these ARE the facts. I have read some 10-15 books on Sid's life and death. as well as Deborah Spungen's (Nancy's mom) book And I Don't Want To Live This Life Anymore. the facts are in these books, and in the interviews that were conducted while Sid's mom was still alive. room 100 of the Chelsea was taken out, and made into a larger version of the lobby for the hotel. maybe due to the sick fascination of people like myself? who knows. there was a rumor that Sid's urn was dropped in JFK airport by his mom, and his ashes blown across the place (Beverly never confirmed or denied this). if this is true, it's a fitting end to a fucked up life. those are the facts people. don't believe all the urban legends that people made up about Sid and Nancy. truth be told, they were human...just like you and I. let's not glorify the tragedy by making it out to be something it's not.

I watched as they showed where he died there were 8 packs of smack on the table (DR BAden) After the drug tests came back it showed that the H he used was 80 percent usually it is five percent. The 80 percent is what killed him and in that DR B's show there was NO mention of his mother administering the H to him.

[NOVSTORM]

Great Find!!!

I find all this not being able to help her and being refused help by the shrinks had to swallow. MY last husbands first wife was diagnosed with Skitz in 1968. She was 25. Institutionalized and given meds when that didn't work they did that horrible shock treatments. BUT between that and her meds it helped her. If she skipped the meds she went off the deep end with paranoia. But she is 63 working and living well on her own. So something does not sound right with their version of not being able to get her help and them with holding records from them about what was wrong with her.

[endsleigh03]

~2/2/1979~

~Today is the anniversary of Sid's death ~

~Rest In Peace, Sid ~

[Warmed Over]

In honor of Sid's d-day, here's an interesting article about meeting him & the band by Roger Ebert: http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/...OPLE/362363802

[Mamma]

In honor of Sid's b-day, here's an interesting article about meeting him & the band by Roger Ebert: http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/...OPLE/362363802

GREAT story Warmed Over. I especially like the ending, about Nancy. I liked Eberts style. He gives a point of view I haven't seen before. Not from Ebert's conservative style that is. Thanks.

[leeny994]

RIP Sid

[lisalouver]

~2/2/1979~

~Today is the anniversary of Sid's death ~

~Rest In Peace, Sid ~

RIP indeed Sid.

[GODDESS6]

almost 30 years have passed, doesn't seem like it~
RIP sidney~

[Grungegirl83]

The whole situation of Sid and his addiction and death are very tragic, considering he was practically a baby. I think Nancy's influence had ALOT to do with him getting on heroin.

[ichabodius]

The whole situation of Sid and his addiction and death are very tragic, considering he was practically a baby. I think Nancy's influence had ALOT to do with him getting on heroin.

Id say the fact that his mother was a junkie had a lot more to do with him getting on heroin.

[leeny994]

supposidely he did not use Heroin until he and Nancy got together...

[kelbons]

I'm wondering whether I can get any of those crime scene pics from the Autopsy show off my TV now that we have an LCD... Hmm....

[leeny994]

but let me rephrase what i said earlier--supposidely he did not use H till he and Nancy got together BUT it still probably has much to do with his mom's problem with H or drugs in general... maybe it was a 2 fold issue/problem

[cherryghost]

Gotta look back at the fact he left a suicide note, I didnt know that! His mother was not a great influence or role model, but Nancy was his love and he was easily lead at such a young age still,Was there really a suicide note? I think he said he had wanted to die after Nancy's death but was that his despair over her death. Oh its so long ago and these were very young souls fucking with mortality and not realising that life is not a dress rehearsal!

[endsleigh03]

Looked on the web and can't find copy, for anyone who hasnt seen this, here it is. This was in his passport at his Moms house, which is when the author of book first saw it. Make of it what you will. (Sid was fashion aware, even in this note, )


~~ We had a death pact
I have to keep my half of the bargain.
Please bury me next to my baby.
Bury me in my leather jacket, jeans and motorcycle boots
Goodbye ~~

[kelbons]

OK, so I was able to get some pics off of the "Autopsy: Post Mortem" show that profiled Sid & Nancy.

I have the knife in the hallway, Nancy - from the video that the police shot - her slumped on the floor and closer shots, Sid's injection site and the stuff that was on his nightstand.

I also got some good Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman shots...

[endsleigh03]

OK, so I was able to get some pics off of the "Autopsy: Post Mortem" show that profiled Sid & Nancy.

I have the knife in the hallway, Nancy - from the video that the police shot - her slumped on the floor and closer shots, Sid's injection site and the stuff that was on his nightstand.

I also got some good Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman shots...

Kelbons any chance of seeing them?

[cherryghost]

Yes please post!

[Noor 7ayaty]

Unfortunately Sid's suicide note was not found until after he'd been cremated -- it was clear he chose to be buried, not burned.

Many question Sid's mother's honesty, and her story about sneaking into Nancy's cemetary to pour Sid's ashes onto her grave. For example, she tells of having to scale a fence to do so, but researchers found that the cemetary *never* had such a fence as she described.

IMHO, the fact that the heroin that Sid took was so much purer than street fare, gives more credulity to the opinion that Rockets Redglare did indeed seek to kill Sid before Sid could mention the possiblity that RR was also among the suspects who may have killed Nancy -- a likely possibility as Nancy made fast enemies, and there was evidence that they were pretty far in debt to RR. It's not unusual for a terribly upset person to admit to a crime they didn't do -- ask any detective.

Finally, Nancy had completed rehab and had been clean for a few months before she got together with Sid. Who turned who on is merely speculation.

I wouldn't trust that movie "Sid and Nancy" as a source though. Witnesses say virtually none of it is true, nor did Cox (the filmmaker) bother to interview ANY of the people close to them -- he relied on hearsay and third-party "reports." Many have come forward to say that movie was pure BS. Shame though, as Gary Oldman and Chloe Webb gave strong performances. People close to them said that one of the few things Alex Cox "got right" was how irritating Nancy could be ...

[leeny994]

this is what i believe---or i am inclined to believe:
and what we know
-sid and nancy were in debt to RR
-He was in the hotel the night Nancy died and seen wandering around
BUT i think at the same time sid and nancy had their own 'suicide pact'
and maybe rockets was aware of this and used it to his advantage this possibly killing nancy

the night sid died i believe he did wish to commit suicide whether it be that night or at another time
Sid's mom ordered the heroin, rockets got wind of it and made sure his was 80% pure as opposed to the regular 5%--his own insurance plan so to speak--basically also not knowing of sid's wish to commit suicide.

but we will REALLY never know huh?

[McCourt]

If anyone ever finds a photo like that, please let me know!

Dr. Michael Baden has a cable television show called "Autopsy." He did a "special" regarding the famous cases that he's investigated, including the Sid & Nancy cases. On this television show, they showed Sid's body on the bed. I'm not sure if the DVD is available, or if it will be shown again on HBO, but you could check it out!

[lisalouver]

Looked on the web and can't find copy, for anyone who hasnt seen this, here it is. This was in his passport at his Moms house, which is when the author of book first saw it. Make of it what you will. (Sid was fashion aware, even in this note, )


~~ We had a death pact
I have to keep my half of the bargain.
Please bury me next to my baby.
Bury me in my leather jacket, jeans and motorcycle boots
Goodbye ~~

Yea, they repeated this note on Badens Autopsy last month. That was the first I had heard of it.

[endsleigh03]

Dr. Michael Baden has a cable television show called "Autopsy." He did a "special" regarding the famous cases that he's investigated, including the Sid & Nancy cases. On this television show, they showed Sid's body on the bed. I'm not sure if the DVD is available, or if it will be shown again on HBO, but you could check it out!

I wish I had HBO.
I have a pic of him naked but not dead
My collection is incomplete.

[lisalouver]

I wish I had HBO.
I have a pic of him naked but not dead
My collection is incomplete.

Naked? Sid was so dang skinny! How does he look naked???

[endsleigh03]

Naked? Sid was so dang skinny! How does he look naked???

Actually he isn't naked in the pic, he just has his pants pulled down, so it's all showing. What there was of it, anyway.

[lisalouver]

Actually he isn't naked in the pic, he just has his pants pulled down, so it's all showing. What there was of it, anyway.

Ah-ha!

[Aries65]

Actually he isn't naked in the pic, he just has his pants pulled down, so it's all showing. What there was of it, anyway.

It's that the picture with him eating the hot dog with mustard all over his face?

I know which one you are talking about. I have it too. I have these photo books of the famous some of them naked. I can't remember the name of it. Sorry, all my shit is in storage right now!

[endsleigh03]

It's that the picture with him eating the hot dog with mustard all over his face?

I know which one you are talking about. I have it too. I have these photo books of the famous some of them naked. I can't remember the name of it. Sorry, all my shit is in storage right now!

There's another with him naked? Give my Granny away to see that lol.
In this one he's just dropped trou for some reason and someone is laughing in the background. No mustard and barely any hot dog to be seen.... (I am being mean, I'll stop. I know it's all in the eye of the beholder)

[kelbons]

Kelbons any chance of seeing them?

Yes please post!

Sure! PM me and I'll send them to you! I haven't put them on Photobucket yet...

[endsleigh03]

Sure! PM me and I'll send them to you! I haven't put them on Photobucket yet...

Thanks, Kelbons

[leevancleef]

Nancy , aged 12

[Maruz83]

Did anyone see the Simpons Epi this weekend making fun of SID & Nancy ! it was too funny !!!!

[JefeStone]

Yeah my kid asked me why they were cooking chocolate in a spoon. Not cool.

[SheBoss]

Nancy was really a very pretty girl. Funny, how you don't get that under all the makeup and drugs...

[Grungegirl83]

Nancy was cute with her dark hair! I LOVED the Simpsons episode with the Sid and Nancy spoof, I was laughing so hard, it was genius

[endsleigh03]

I just finished re-reading "And I don't want to live this life" by Nancy's mom. I read it the first time as soon as the book came out years ago.
I found when I read it this time, as an adult and a parent myself, that............. an AWFUL lot in that book gets blamed on Nancy. About halfway thru the book, I was getting annoyed with it. The blame, I mean.
After a while it seemed like it was "Oh, the sun came up and it was Nancy's fault, thats why our lives are ruined" "Oh, the yard service people were late, it's Nancy's fault, our lives are ruined" "The new toaster burned the toast, it's Nancy's fault, she's whats ruining our lives"

I am being silly of course, thats not exactly what was written, but still....
There were an awful lot of instances where they just let her have her way to keep her quiet, and when they did that, they broke a serious rule of parenting. And the more they did it, the more she learned to get crazier every time to get her way. Kids are a quick study.
Before anyone jumps my azz here, believe me when I say I know the crazy shite the girl did, alot of it was deathly serious, and I also do know that her family lived thru hell. I am not putting down what happened to them in any way. She did seem to be mentally ill.
I think what I am trying to say here, is that I read this book with a new perspective about her early years......

[KarmaKat]

The Sex Pistols were an awesome band. And Sid trully was the apitame of punk IMO.
What happened to him was so sad. I have never had any doubt in my mind just how deeply in love he was with Nancy, but I think it was more about image than love for her. Again IMO.
This really is one story that turned into urban legend after urban legend and because of that Sid will always be remembered for his death more than his life.

[cindyt]

I just finished re-reading "And I don't want to live this life" by Nancy's mom. I read it the first time as soon as the book came out years ago.
I found when I read it this time, as an adult and a parent myself, that............. an AWFUL lot in that book gets blamed on Nancy. About halfway thru the book, I was getting annoyed with it. The blame, I mean.
After a while it seemed like it was "Oh, the sun came up and it was Nancy's fault, thats why our lives are ruined" "Oh, the yard service people were late, it's Nancy's fault, our lives are ruined" "The new toaster burned the toast, it's Nancy's fault, she's whats ruining our lives"

I am being silly of course, thats not exactly what was written, but still....
There were an awful lot of instances where they just let her have her way to keep her quiet, and when they did that, they broke a serious rule of parenting. And the more they did it, the more she learned to get crazier every time to get her way. Kids are a quick study.
Before anyone jumps my azz here, believe me when I say I know the crazy shite the girl did, alot of it was deathly serious, and I also do know that her family lived thru hell. I am not putting down what happened to them in any way. She did seem to be mentally ill.
I think what I am trying to say here, is that I read this book with a new perspective about her early years......

I've read the book at least twice. And I think they knew they were impowering Nancy by letting her have her way, but what else could they do to keep the piece. I mean this kid was a monster--sorry, but that's the truth--and they were scared to death of her, of what she might do if she didn't get her way, and who knows what she might have done had they fought her tooth and nail. She needed treatment when there really was no adequat treatment at the time. She should have been institutionalized, and finally was sent to that home. She did not deserve to die like that, and I am not convinced Sid did it.