Dont think anyone can argue the revolution in Music the Sex Pistols were! Never Mind the Bollocks is still an amazing album, sounds great still! And punk changed music thank god! Some people didnt get punk and never will!
Dont think anyone can argue the revolution in Music the Sex Pistols were! Never Mind the Bollocks is still an amazing album, sounds great still! And punk changed music thank god! Some people didnt get punk and never will!
Renowned Death Hag
Cherry - no offense, but I guess I'm one of those folks who never will. While I can appreciate the influence the SP had in changing the music scene, I really think that was all about the lifestyle of punk more than the music. I just can't tell if the SP really knew how to play their instruments. I believe it has even been documented in lots of articles that Sid didn't know how to play bass when he joined the SP and it really didn't matter. He also never learned while with them. That's ok - some folks like it and some don't!
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38-39
Agreed with SheBoss. Other than some controversey created by their style and angst (all the punks did that anyway) there wasn't anything groundbreaking about them. What makes them famous is Nancy's murder and Sids od IMO. Nancy helped Sid get some gigs across the states before their deaths, and they were playing to empty bar rooms. Even I'll admit it's the murder (suicides pact?) that carries the mystique, and not the band itself, for me.Originally Posted by SheBoss
That was Gaby Hoffman, seems the last big movie was 200 Cigarettes.
http://imdb.com/name/nm0000451/
I was a fan of her work and you are right, even on screen she came off as older than her age.
They wrote their own songs aside, from a few covers and really from too many bands for me to mention, onwards, influenced and rejuvenated rock music..... still its interesting to discuss this! Disagree that it was Nancy's murder that made them famous, that made me laugh! Sids death was sad for them. But in their own words "They meant it man!"
Most rock bands do the same. Rejuvinate roock, write their own songs, inflenced ...etc. But not many other bands have a murder tied to it. Plenty of overdoses though, so we can add that one to the list as well.
No the Pistols destroyed the idea of dinasour bands and were anti establishment bands. Its not black and white! Most Rock bands do not rejuvenate rock! In Punk they were destroying rock, to rebuild it! Rock and Roll is dead long live Rock and Roll!
Your wrong yet right, most bands do do the same! Thats why we have banal bands out there and why music is lame right now!
To revolutionise music they dont do the same! They destroy their idols to create new music! Its an age old addage!
Great rock bands do something that is not done before, or are innovative with what has been done but take it further! Influence is not to be confused by "most rock bands do the same" Many rock bands have controvesy, murder, drugs, suicide, so i dont get your point.
Very few rock bands change the direction of music, those that do the same just continue a scene! They take from influences and are influenced!
When a band like the Pistols came along they were not rejuvenating rock they were destroying it!
Its called innovation and distruction!
From the ashes come new conceptions
Last edited by cherryghost; 12-22-2007 at 04:26 AM.
Well, thats all a matter of opinion. I'm just sayin'. The whole destroying rock and roll is interesting, since Sid knew nothing about music at all until Mclaren hired him for image alone. And lets be honest here, he never quite learned much about music once he was hired anyway. I'm still with SheBoss on this one. This was image for McLaren, and as for Lydon today he still has music generating, but he had dissolve the Sex Pistols in order to continue to do so.
The Pistols knew about music! Sid did know about music, Mclaren didnt hire sid alone, he was John Lydons friend! Mclaren likes to tell everyone how he controlled the whole sex pistols/punk phenonema but that isnt real!
See any of the pistols docs and you will see the conflict of ego where the band and members deny Mclarens wild claims of control and influence! They were not ignorant of music history or culture.
McLaren used them and didnt know how to control them because they were originals and not his toys as he tried to portray them in The Great Rock and roll Swindle ! They were a movement about to happen from the street and he latched onto them and managed them! They had to go through all that shit just because they were a great rock and roll band and unfortunatly were managed by a total bastard!
They would not have lasted anyway, but Mclaren exploited that for his own means!
He wasnt there for Sid, he has created all sorts of fantasy for his idea of the pistols .
John Lydon didnt dissolve the sex pistols to do what he does now! It was process over time!
Last edited by cherryghost; 12-22-2007 at 06:41 AM.
Read or watch the "The Filth and the fury"
I can certainly see your point about Mclaran. And from research and docs, it was all about image, for him. With all of his bands. Annabella Lwin of Bow Wow Wow could certainly sing, but it appears Mclaren LOVED to put this teenager on display like a little Lolita. he made no secret about it. Yes, I see your point.
As for Rotten/Lydon? Doesn't seem like he's changed much over the decades. Just as crude, just as nasty as ever. Dissing their appearance for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction was the eptiome of his character, IMO.
HOWEVER, he knew how to handle a courtroom (the best to his ability!), and believe it or not, carried himself like a decent human being. Couldn't believe it! As tacky as this sounds, Lydon was sued in small claims court by an ex member of his band that was touring around the states, specifically NYC. The band member was sooo "offended" when Lydon fired him, he took Lydon to Judge Judy court. Oh, the humanity !!!
Ever seen that episode? Well here ya go, Merry christmas! Even as a punk, I think you will be very proud of Lydon's appearance in court. Well spoken, and didn't spit on the judge once !!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2CnwYPhcQk
Heres a better one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yN0k...eature=related
Hold oooonnn .... wait a minute !!! this is the first time i've seen this Judge judy clip in a few years. Is it just me, or is the plaintiff that guy from the show "Intervention"? If so, he was one of the first people profiled on the show - he had a terrible gambling addiction. Lemme see what I can find ....
ETA: Naaah, I don't think they are one in the same. Looking very similar, talking very similar and even the exact same hair color, but their names are different. they are both musicians, though. What a coinkydink.
Last edited by Mamma; 12-22-2007 at 07:23 AM.
Renowned Death Hag
[quote=Jenny Mulhenny;102195]That was Gaby Hoffman, seems the last big movie was 200 Cigarettes.
http://imdb.com/name/nm0000451/
I was a fan of her work and you are right, even on screen she came off as older than her age.[/quote
Yes, you are right...Gabby Hoffman!
I agree with Sheboss on this one. I'm a pretty big punk fan myself and I've never liked The Sex Pistols. I'm fascinated by the Sid and Nancy story, but the band really left me cold. I've always viewed them as The Backstreet Boys of punk rock. They had the look and the attitude and McLauren wanted that more than anything. They knew how to cause a stir, credit where it's due. They were about the attitude of punk, that's for sure.
You do know that he was a founding member of The Banshees before he met McLaren, right?
The Chelsea is notorious for being a hotel where people live long term rather than rent a room for the night.
I would love to check it out one day.
I read up on rockets redglare and he was the one who delivered the dope and something like $1200 was missing from Nancy's purse. You can google some pics of him, he died a bloated obese mess. He must have weighed close to 400 pounds. Guess he traded one addiction for another.
Kind of iroinc that Nancy bought Sid that knife on the day of the murder, no?
Renowned Death Hag
Mamma - I just watched your JJ clip. My, but she's not at obnoxious back then. I wonder if she's just a little skeered of Johnny Rotten?
Last edited by SheBoss; 01-07-2008 at 01:20 PM.
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38-39
http://www.amazon.com/Legends-Chelse...9798028&sr=8-1
this is a great book on the HOtel Chelsea, there are some chapters of course dealing with the Sid and nancy stuff. alas, the room has been destroyed---chopped up and made into different rooms...
but the book has info on Gaby too (albeit not a lot) but it is a fun read
There is a television show on HBO that has premiered this month, called Autopsy: Postmortem with Dr. Michael Baden. If you happen to get HBO, please look for this listing. If you are a Sid and Nancy hag, this show will most certainly be of interest to you.
A thread of the show has been created here:
http://www.findadeath.com/forum/show...786#post122786
It profiles several famous deaths in an hour, to include Sid and Nancy with video footage I have never seen before. I'm reposting my thoughts on the Sid and Nancy portion below:
What makes this so unique for Sid and Nancy, is that I have never, ever, seen such clear photographs of Nancy, and even video of the crime scene. It's very obvious that it's not a reenactment. That really is Nancy. All these years, all I've ever seen of Nancy's deatn is the grainy still shot from the NYPD. When I saw her in the video, all bloody like that between the sink and toilet, my skin jumped.
And Sid? I guess I always figured he fell asleep on a couch or something after his od, and died. Nope. He was laid out completely nude on the bed, sheets off ....and soooo damned still. For someone like Sid who was always seen cursing on the stage with that sneer of his, I must admit is was rather eerie, if not sad alltogether, that he was so still, and very dead. Close ups were also done of the puncture mark where he shot up the fatal dose.
Nancy had one single stab woulnd to her abdomen. Lisa and all, when you see this footage, take a look at Nancy's thighs. Those are very clearly her handprints amidst the smears of blood, and I just can't help but be disturbed at the pain she must have gone through. perhaps. Heroin is a pretty big pain killer from what I've heard, not what I know, so perhaps not? It gave me the chills looking at the video thoguh, as I had never seen such detail in Nancy crime scene before.
Anyhoo, I'm probably going to copy this over to the Sid and Nancy thread as well, beacuse I found the unique footage absolute amazing, and tragic, all at the same time.
Renowned Death Hag
Wow, so the program actually showed all that? I hope it comes out on DVD! I don't get HBO.
It was a great show. I watched it. Sid was on there talking about Nancy shortly after her death in an interview where he is smoking a cigarette. He is so incredibly young, it just took my breath away.Wow, so the program actually showed all that? I hope it comes out on DVD! I don't get HBO.
It's a series, and sometimes HBO will have the dvd's for rent or sale, like the Sopranos for instance. It was pretty amazing stuffWow, so the program actually showed all that? I hope it comes out on DVD! I don't get HBO..
Renowned Death Hag
Well, if it does come out on DVD - it'll be in my collection!It's a series, and sometimes HBO will have the dvd's for rent or sale, like the Sopranos for instance. It was pretty amazing stuff
How can anyone be a Punk fan and not like the Sex Pistols!Call me an old Punk .......Back Street Boys of Punk now that is just inaccurate.....How could anyone who knows punk say that (Cant find frown Icon) LOL!"
Listen to "Never mind the Bollocks" Today, it is amazing to listen too now, the Pistols I feel were very much about the music! "They meant it man!"
I think McLaren has done quite a job reinterpreting his involvement with the band.
Steve Jones was always a brillant guitarist.
Paul Cook could play drums for sure!
John Lydon could write and was a great performer! I saw him in PiL.
Sid was really the only one who couldnt play his bass and the drugs didnt help! But he had a great singing voice! C'mon Everybody and My Way, Only Sinatras version is more memorable!
I was just trying to imagine Sidif he were alive today, but then realised he would still be in Jail! Errhhhh No he wouldnt be.
How long would he have served in Jail? It was an accident dont you deathhags think?
This is a Sid site tho...... Focus Cherryghost!
Last edited by cherryghost; 01-12-2008 at 08:30 PM.
Im putting my safetly pin back in my lip now, it still looks better than botox!
LMAO!
Is LMAO.... laugh my arse off!
That has only revealed itself to me..... on my second glass of Western Australian Savignon Blanc! Its Sunday evening here and I have spent most of the day on FDF! Thesis what thesis, I will tell my markers! The paintings on the other hand may be of most interesting content! See that romantic landscape, guess whats buried in the foreground! LMAO.
Yes laugh my arse off!
Excellent Lisa! It really did take that glass of wine!
i don't know if sid would still be in jail or if somehow things may have gone differently.... ya never know--loopholes in the case/investigation. sid may have gotten different legal representation along the way...i just have that feeling...
Considering the lifestyle that Sid and Nancy led, plus those who would have been called to testify (against Nancy, in Sids defense), Nancy would have been torn apart limb by limb even worse than what she had up until her death. In that respect, I doubt Sid would have seen much jail time, if at all. They were both junkies, in a drug induced stupor, so both Sid AND Nancy may have been held responsible for her death.
Case in point, Teena Brandon (Boys Don't Cry) was found partially responsible for her own murder, since a court decided it was her double and secretive lifestyle that put her in the position of being killed in the first place. (WTF ???? But yes, that's how some court systems work).
Anyhoo, and the end result for Sid may have been manslaughter with a jail sentence and credit given for time served.
Considering how crudely Nancy would have been portrayed for a jury, I'm rather glad her murder never went to trial, even if it took Sids death to prevent it. Oddly selfish of me, no? Nancy had problems, Nancy was a junkie, Nancy was foul and hateful to most everyone who got near Sid, Nancy was someones daughter.
Considering Nancy was mentally unstable since birth, went undiagnosed properly for the most part, not to mention her mother taking Nancy OFF of prescribed, anti-psychotic meds "cold turkey" without a doctors approval or supervision, Nancy was always going to have problems. She self-medicated through heroin. Those who abhored Nauseating Nancy made it sound as if Nancy was a hateful wench through choice, when in fact the kid just couldn't help it I'm afraid.
Murder trial or not, I don't think Sid was going to live very long anyway. If not for his suicide, he most likely would have died of an accidental overdose at any given time. But this is all JMO.
Last edited by Mamma; 01-13-2008 at 10:19 AM.
true true, i agree. i just think that had sid not died at that time it would have not happened for at least a while longer. plus in sid's case there is the issue that when they went to get the heroin for him the night he died---rockets redglare heard that the smack was for sid and made sure it was almost pure heroin--and since sid was detoxed shortly before---he did this knowing it may kill sid--thus leading some truth to the rumor that rockets may have been the one to kill nancy in a deal gone wrong.
supposidely rockets was afraid that this would come out (despite the investigations leaning towards sid being responsible, and even sid believing he may have been responsible----the story goes that rockets just wanted to make sure his part stayed dead with nancy.
i have always felt for nancy. she had so many demons and issues, that clearly her family did nothing about, and when they did 'try' it seemed manipulative and half done. it was just a matter of time before she began self medicating and doing her poor self in. and maybe, just maybe in their own twisted way--i like to think that somewhere deep down they had genuine love and affection for each other... but their issues and the drugs were just so much bigger...
Such a good point. However, Sid took the dose knowing very well he was going to kill himslef, and left a suicide note nearby. But it certainly sounds plausible that Rockets would have liked to rid the world of Sid, in hopes that Sid will not implicate him (Rockets) in his upcoming trial.rockets redglare heard that the smack was for sid and made sure it was almost pure heroin--and since sid was detoxed shortly before---he did this knowing it may kill sid--thus leading some truth to the rumor that rockets may have been the one to kill nancy in a deal gone wrong.
Also, I agree with the member upthread too, in that Sid still looked to be child-like when all this happened. I know he was barely 22 (?), but he still looks like he's about 16 or 17 in the video footage for the Dr. Baden documentary.
I've mostly seen Vicious like everyone else in modern times, from old stage video clips, and still shots where he's sneering, and flipping people off, etc. It's rare that I see Sid in a more "relaxed" state, but not being high. There is a photo widely circulated with Sid holding a child on his knee, as Nancy sits beside him. I don't know who the kid is (relative of Nancy?), but the smile on Sid's face looks genuine.
Also, I'm just now remembering that Nancy's mother (Deborah Sungen) said in her book, that only in death did Nancy look as though she were finally at peace, without any anger, pain or resentment lining her face. Just like Sid.
yeah i remember that part too. i mean things could have happened to nancy her mom had no knowledge of, and that Nancy never divulged to doctors or people treating her when they did get help thus---nancy;s problems were even deeper than they thought.
Sid's mother was no prize. he learned a lot of his child like and destructive
behavior from her. so both he and nancy entered their relationship with these issues hovering over them. it was just a matter of time.
it is possible rockets thought sid was just going to get high and sent over the pure dosage at the same time sid decided to kill himself. i just have a sinking suspicion there is more to mr. redglare and his involvement than we realize...
Renowned Death Hag
cherry,i'm with you on this. i think they only added one song after glenn left,lydon says that there would have been more releases,and maybe johnny regrets the break.
lydon also said sid was willing to settle for second best right off.
nancy supposedly threw herself at rotten,who easily dodged her.
Last edited by midnitelamp; 01-13-2008 at 02:55 PM. Reason: i know how to get it
i had heard that nancy threw herself at Johnny and he wanted no part of her. but she had been a groupie for a while and had thrown herself at various NY Dolls members (I think) as well) then made her way to England and... well the rest is history.
The new Autopsy with Baden stated that Sid's mother purchased the heroin that took his life. So, are you saying she got it from rockets redglare?
That dude was something boy, he died a grossly obese bloated mess. I believe there is more to him than meets the eye also.
OMG the case there ...Teena Brandon....' partially responsible for her own murder???'
Thats like saying a woman was asking to be raped because she wore a short skirt!
I saw the R.R. docu. He was a mess.
As far as Sids mom buying the dope, nobody will ever know 100 percent if the RR theory is correct, and if it did come from him, there was obviously an in between person who delivered it.
Alan Parker had quite a bit of access to Sids mom thru the years, she never says she got it directly from RR, but the book does come out and accuse RR of murdering Nancy, flat out, no apologies.
Thanks for the clarification on that. I never saw the RR docu. I would love to check it out one day.
Rockets never delivered the heroin, as the story goes, he just made sure the person who was was delivering the more pure potent stuff when he overheard who the heroin was for
very true, the whole Rockets thing has never been proved, but he was seen wandering the hotel after, or at least walking the hotel, and some money was missing from sid and nancy's room. i guess we will never know...
Administrator
So she might have given him that lethal dose. I don't know if it's true or not, and you wouldn't think a mother would do such a thing. But people who use drugs do things non users wouldn't dream of doing. My baby sister is a junkie who beat up her 2 year old grandson, so I know what I'm talking about.
Administrator
Sid's mother bought the heroin that killed him, yes.
didn't see this brought up here & if it has been already i apologize~ but on cable the past 2 weeks they have been running one of those autopsy shows w/ baden~ they do a segment on sid & nancy & for the deathhags, they have video & very clear pictures of nancy's murder & her body in the bathroom, much better than what is out there, those are mostly black & white & or grainy~ it also shows, the bloody bathroom, bedroom & the knife~ then it goes on to do sid's death~ even though i have read all the books & such i still found it extremely interesting~
it also had nicole brown simpson, the romanov's, & i can't remember what else, but it was super interesting~
Yea I watched it, it was really good. I liked the pics of Sid dead in the bed too, although you don't see his face, just his torso and his arm with the needle mark in the anticubital fossa.
I still think it is so interesting (sad) that the knife used to stab Nancy was purchased by her for Sid earlier that day.
i'm so glad to see someone else saw it, i dvr'd it so i could watch again~
& i agree about the knife~ footage was awesome~
Hey Goddess! Hope you are feeling better
What makes this so unique for Sid and Nancy, is that I have never, ever, seen such clear photographs of Nancy, and even video of the crime scene. It's very obvious that it's not a reenactment. That really is Nancy
And Sid? I guess I always figured he fell asleep on a couch or something after his od, and died. Nope. He was laid out completely nude on the bed, sheets off ....and soooo damned still. For someone like Sid who was always seen cursing on the stage with that sneer of his, I must admit is was rather eerie, if not sad alltogether, that he was so still, and very dead. Close ups were also done of the puncture mark where he shot up the fatal dose.
Nancy had one single stab woulnd to her abdomen. Lisa and all, when you see this footage, take a look at Nancy's thighs. Those are very clearly her handprints amidst the smears of blood, and I just can't help but be disturbed at the pain she must have gone through. perhaps. Heroin is a pretty big pain killer from what I've heard, not what I know, so perhaps not? It gave me the chills looking at the video thoguh, as I had never seen such detail in Nancy crime scene before.
Anyhoo, I'm probably going to copy this over to the Sid and Nancy thread as well, beacuse I found the unique footage absolute amazing, and tragic, all at the same time.
^^^thanx mamma, all is well now, don't know what it was, went away as mysteriosly as it came upon me~
If you get a chance do see it. He mentions Sid and Nancy only briefly, but the story of his life was pretty amazing. He just struck me as being, for one thing, very, very street smart, someone who could talk you out of your shirt. He actually had quite a few movie roles and some famous pals too. Go figure.
Renowned Death Hag
Steve Jones has a radio show in Los Angeles and often comments that Malcom McClarron was very tight with the money, never paid musicians, that sort of thing. I'm not saying I know, that's just what I've heard on the radio from the only Sex Pistol who could actually play an instrument. I believe you, because you have a good reputation here, and I am still a Jr. Death Hag, mainly because I do more reading than writing....(I think).
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