Page 10 of 46 FirstFirst ... 8910111219 ... LastLast
Results 451 to 500 of 2253

Thread: Buddy Holly

  1. #451
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Duluth, MN
    Posts
    538
    It's too bad Lew Latto never got involved with anything. I heard years ago that he had an audio tape of the 1959 concert and he was going to use portions of it for the tour's return in the summer, and he saved the tape for several years after, but then finally got rid of everything he had for the show. This info came from one of his friend's whom I used to bowl with. To this day Lew denies it, maybe because everybody would tell him how stupid he was for getting rid of the stuff.

  2. #452
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Duluth, MN
    Posts
    207
    I am pretty sure Lew was at the Armory the day they opened it for viewing. I didn't really talk to him, or anyone for that matter (too busy walking around, snapping photos, praying that there was no asbestos). He did say, in a newspaper interview I believe, that he wishes he had saved at least one of the concert posters that he had distributed at the time of the concert ($cha-ching$). I can't imagine why anyone would get rid of something like a one of a kind recording of dead rock stars. I would believe it more if he had lost or misplaced it. What a shame.
    "Anytime I see something screech across a room and latch onto someone's neck, and the guy screams and tries to get it off, I have to laugh, because what is that thing." -Jack Handey

  3. #453
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    West Virginia
    Posts
    1,042
    Quote Originally Posted by ***diana*** View Post
    I am pretty sure Lew was at the Armory the day they opened it for viewing. I didn't really talk to him, or anyone for that matter (too busy walking around, snapping photos, praying that there was no asbestos). He did say, in a newspaper interview I believe, that he wishes he had saved at least one of the concert posters that he had distributed at the time of the concert ($cha-ching$). I can't imagine why anyone would get rid of something like a one of a kind recording of dead rock stars. I would believe it more if he had lost or misplaced it. What a shame.
    That no worst than what Charlie Dick, Patsy Clines husband did!!! A few w years ago a CD was released called Patsy Cline Live at the Cimarron Ballroom and it is one of only a few live recording of her but anyway Charlie moved from Patsy's dream home because he said it was haunted and How the performance tape came to light is a story in itself: A copy was given to Patsy and her husband, Charlie Dick, and made its way into the basement of their Nashville house in a box with several other reels. Two years after Patsy died in a plane crash in 1963, Charlie sold the house to another Decca recording artist, Wilma Burgess. The tapes were left behind.

    Now that is awful don't u think?

  4. #454
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    270
    What do you expect from someone named Charlie Dick...

  5. #455
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Duluth, MN
    Posts
    207
    Now that is bad, because he was her husband. If my spouse died, I would keep anything of importance that was his. And he isn't even famous.
    "Anytime I see something screech across a room and latch onto someone's neck, and the guy screams and tries to get it off, I have to laugh, because what is that thing." -Jack Handey

  6. #456
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Duluth, MN
    Posts
    207
    Has anyone read any of the Buddy Holly biographies out there? I have read "Remembering Buddy" (Goldrosen and Beecher), Ellis Amburn's book, and "Rave On" by Phillip Norman. I had some questions about the accuracy of each of them.
    Opinions, please...
    "Anytime I see something screech across a room and latch onto someone's neck, and the guy screams and tries to get it off, I have to laugh, because what is that thing." -Jack Handey

  7. #457
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Duluth, MN
    Posts
    538
    As big of a Holly fan as I am, I only read one and that is John Goldrosen's book. He did a lot of research and pretty much stuck to facts, not stories. I met him a couple of times in the early 80s and he was very nice and VERY knowledgable. I've heard mixed reviews on the other two but Goldrosen's book is always high on everybody's list.

  8. #458
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Duluth, MN
    Posts
    207
    As far as I can tell, Ellis Amburn's book is the most scandalous (and possibly the least truthful), "Rave On" is down the middle, and "Remembering Buddy" is the most tame.
    Amburn and Phillip Norman ("Rave On") both report that Buddy had an illegitimate child with a Lubbock teenager. They both state their source of this story as Niki Sullivan. I have googled this and have come up with nothing. Bill Griggs mentions it briefly in an interview (as a preview to an additional interview which I can not find). His opinion on this is not stated. So I am curious, yet stumped.
    "Anytime I see something screech across a room and latch onto someone's neck, and the guy screams and tries to get it off, I have to laugh, because what is that thing." -Jack Handey

  9. #459
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Duluth, MN
    Posts
    538
    I also heard the same story when he came to Duluth in the summer of '58 he had a "fling" with a girl and when he was back in Jan. '59 he supposedly paid her off to keep it quiet. I don't believe either story to be true.

  10. #460
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    270
    Run, dont walk, to your library or Amazon to get THE DAY THE MUSIC DIED it chronicles the last tour day by day. Very well written and informative.
    I'd never heard nor read anything about an illegitimate child...

  11. #461
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Duluth, MN
    Posts
    538
    Quote Originally Posted by ShockDoc View Post
    Run, dont walk, to your library or Amazon to get THE DAY THE MUSIC DIED it chronicles the last tour day by day. Very well written and informative.
    I'd never heard nor read anything about an illegitimate child...
    Yes, I've heard very good reviews on this one as well. Written by Larry Lehmer.

  12. #462
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Home of the Flaming Koresh
    Posts
    1,598
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Yes, I've heard very good reviews on this one as well. Written by Larry Lehmer.
    Gary grab this book if you can, I got mine on Amazon. I thought it was one of the better books on Buddy, Ritchie & JP.
    If Jimmy cracks corn and no one cares, why is there a song about him?


    Hag O' Death

  13. #463
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Duluth, MN
    Posts
    207
    I will definitely try to get my hands on that book. I want to get Bill Grigg's book - I think it is called "Buddy Holly: Day by Day." I am also considering "The Buddy I Knew" by Larry Holley.
    "Anytime I see something screech across a room and latch onto someone's neck, and the guy screams and tries to get it off, I have to laugh, because what is that thing." -Jack Handey

  14. #464
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Duluth, MN
    Posts
    538
    I've seen Lehmer's book at Barnes & Nobles but I'm cheap. I'll look for that on ebay. I heard Jerry Dwyer is going to write a book, too. Everybody's getting into the act but his book will be more about Roger P and the truth behind the crash. I have my theory (besides pilot error) but never told anybody what I think happened. I want to see if my theory coincides with Mr. Dwyer's story.

  15. #465
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    4,648
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    I've seen Lehmer's book at Barnes & Nobles but I'm cheap. I'll look for that on ebay. I heard Jerry Dwyer is going to write a book, too. Everybody's getting into the act but his book will be more about Roger P and the truth behind the crash. I have my theory (besides pilot error) but never told anybody what I think happened. I want to see if my theory coincides with Mr. Dwyer's story.
    Please 'spill' your theory, Gary. Inquiring Death Hags want to know!
    "What if the Hokey Pokey is what it's really all about?" Jimmy Buffett

  16. #466
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Minnesooooota!
    Posts
    9,800
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Yes, I've heard very good reviews on this one as well. Written by Larry Lehmer.
    I bought mine when it came out and took it to Clear Lake with me when Larry was there signing them. Had mine signed and my Dad's signed and my pic taken with Larry.

    I wouldn't part with mine for all the tea in China.

    Excellent book, excellent pics and Mr Lehmer was/is a very pleasant man.
    Winners are losers...who got up and gave it one more try ~ Dennis Deyoung

  17. #467
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    NY Long Island
    Posts
    4,696
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    True. The original riders for the plane were to be Buddy, Waylon Jennings (gave his seat to the Big Bopper because Bopper was sick), and Tommy Allsup. Ritchie wanted in so he asked Tommy to flip a coin.....Ritchie called HEADS and that's what it was.
    Dion refused to fly because the cost was too much. $36. Said he turned it down because that was a month's rent!
    Gary I always knew the Waylon Jennings story but I had no idea about the coin flip or Dion. Interesting info. There but for fortune!
    Regards,
    Mary

  18. #468
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    270
    Larry Holley's latest book, I DONT KNOW HOW I DID IT is available. The cover is unintentionally funny in that he looks suitably addled on the cover...

  19. #469
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Duluth, MN
    Posts
    538
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanwench View Post
    Please 'spill' your theory, Gary. Inquiring Death Hags want to know!
    Okay, I came up with this theory a couple of years ago after I heard this. A few years back, Jerry Dwyer (owner of the plane, and YES he still has it!) allowed crash victim family members to view the wreckage. Apparently things didn't go well after the Valens family got a chance to view and talk with Mr. Dwyer, this according to Jerry himself. He would not say what was said but did say that the Valens family was VERY upset by things he said and by his theory as to what happened on the plane. If I remember right, the Valens family sued Mr. Dwyer after the crash and I don't believe they won.
    Here is my theory........Ritchie did not like flying. He did fly before this but in a larger plane, but he really did not like flying. So what happens when you put somebody, that doesn't like flying, on a SMALL plane? He probably thought nothing of it at the time since his friend Buddy was the one chartering the plane, so when he found out about it, he wanted in! So he bugged Tommy Allsup all night that night. Tommy kept saying NO. When they were leaving the Surf, after the concert, Tommy was asked by Buddy to go back in and check to make sure they got everything, so he went in by the stage door and there was Ritchie asking Tommy ONE MORE TIME if he could fly....finally, just to put an end to it, Tommy said FINE, I'll flip you for it and pulled out a 50 cent piece. Ritchie called heads. They went back outside to the car and Tommy told Ritchie that if it's okay with Buddy to go ahead....and Buddy said it was fine (and laughed at Tommy). Tommy gave Buddy his wallet and I.D. to pick up a letter in Moorhead and away they went.
    Well, like I said.....when somebody who isn't really used to flying in a small plane gets in and the plane takes off and does things that a larger plane doesn't do, you panic a little (or in this case, I think it was a LOT). Ritchie was sitting behind Buddy...as the plane was accelerating and taking off (they actually took off to the S.E. and looped around to head N.W.), my theory is that Ritchie immediately had a panic attack and wanted to get off. It was at this time that Buddy turned around to Ritchie and tried calming him down and while doing that, I believe that Buddy either hit a switch of some sort (without knowledge by the pilot) or possibly Buddy's large coat got caught on the steering controls and while they were trying to get him un-tangled, the plane was descending instead of ascending and by the time the pilot realized this, he over-corrected the situation and the plane hit the ground going a couple of hundred miles per hour. You must remember, they weren't up there very long. A pilot knows that when you pull back on the controls the plane goes up....push in and the plane goes down. The plane was going down almost immediately after making the turn to head in the N.W. direction. Why? There had to have been some kind of disturbance. There was NOT a snowstorm but there were good, strong winds on the ground. The sky was actually clear that night but snow was blowing across the roads and runway but that was from fresh snow that fell earlier. So my thinking is that there was something going on inside the plane. I think Ritchie had a massive panic-attack and I believe that's POSSIBLY what Mr. Dwyer came up with as well and when he told the Valens family this, they became upset not believing that it could have been him that may have caused the crash. In everybody's mind, it was pilot error.....PERIOD. Well, I don't believe it was Roger Peterson's fault at all. I believe something happened on the plane and he tried to get the plane back UP as soon as he realized they were going down but it was just too late. Maybe he was trying to get back to the airport after all, to let Ritchie get off, after all the RIGHT wing tip hit the ground, so was he trying to turn back but they were just too low to the ground? Think about it.......try to imagine these scenarios and let me know what you think. Am I crazy? Am I on the right track? PLEASE GIVE ME YOUR THOUGHTS.
    Again, I have NEVER heard Mr. Dwyer's theory to the crash. He is writing a book that he hopes to have out within a year, so we will find out then what his thoughts are, but after hearing SO MANY stories thru the years, this is what I came up with. I brought it up with a couple of other Holly fans before and they think I may be on to something.
    Another question I've always had was this.......why was the Big Bopper naked when he was found (except for underwear and socks)? Everybody else was fully clothed, why was he the only one that had his clothes "ripped" off? He was quite sick that night and I'm sure it was hot and stuffy on the plane and he was a rather large guy....was he taking his jacket and shirt off to cool off while this was going on with Buddy and Ritchie? Was he taking his stuff off FOR Ritchie to wear? All of these things go through my mind.........TELL ME I'M CRAZY!!!!!!!!!!!

  20. #470
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Duluth, MN
    Posts
    207
    I don't think you are crazy. I have also mulled over this possible scenario. Before you mentioned it, I wondered if Ritchie went nuts on the plane and the ensuing chaos caused the crash. He had an admitted fear of small planes since the fatal incident at his school. I wonder if they were trying to restrain him in some way. Possibly using Bopper's clothes??? Where were the clothes found after the wreck? Also, with everyone moving around frantically, could shifting weight cause lift problems? Bopper and Ritchie were not small people...
    "Anytime I see something screech across a room and latch onto someone's neck, and the guy screams and tries to get it off, I have to laugh, because what is that thing." -Jack Handey

  21. #471
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Duluth, MN
    Posts
    538
    Quote Originally Posted by ***diana*** View Post
    I don't think you are crazy. I have also mulled over this possible scenario. Before you mentioned it, I wondered if Ritchie went nuts on the plane and the ensuing chaos caused the crash. He had an admitted fear of small planes since the fatal incident at his school. I wonder if they were trying to restrain him in some way. Possibly using Bopper's clothes??? Where were the clothes found after the wreck? Also, with everyone moving around frantically, could shifting weight cause lift problems? Bopper and Ritchie were not small people...
    I've never heard where the Bopper's clothes were actually found. I heard his coat (Melvin) was pretty much tattered. Even Buddy's clothes were left to be destroyed. His brother didn't want them and told the authorities "burn them".
    IF this happened with Ritchie, and if this is what Jerry Dwyer told his family, it's no wonder they're upset with him, but they DO keep coming back to Clear Lake and it's not like they avoid Jerry because he's at the Surf during that time, too.

  22. #472
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Minnesooooota!
    Posts
    9,800
    Hey Gary!

    I don't think that your theory is crazy at all. I always wondered the thing about the gyroscope (spelling?) and reading it upside down and all. I had no idea Dwyer was still alive. How old is he now?

    On another note, I remember reading in I think it was Larry L's book that Buddys yellow long coat was split all the way down the back. This actually makes sense to me as plane crash victims clothing can be torn, etc. However, seemed to me Ritchies long black coat was totally intact and actually they made mention of the name of the tailor or where he bought it in California was written on a tag inside it. I think you can see that in the pictures too. I remember looking at the pictures and thinking how large Ritchies thighs were. He was not a small kid!
    Winners are losers...who got up and gave it one more try ~ Dennis Deyoung

  23. #473
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Duluth, MN
    Posts
    538
    Both Jerry and his wife, Barb, are still alive and I think in their mid-80s. They are both involved with the happenings in Clear Lake every year.

  24. #474
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    270
    I suppose that theory is plausible, but if it's true and can be proven (which would be next to impossible), why didnt that come out years ago? I must also add I dont know why Dwyer's been sitting on the info all this time. He says he's writing a book. I suggest he write a little faster...

  25. #475
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Duluth, MN
    Posts
    538
    Quote Originally Posted by ShockDoc View Post
    I suppose that theory is plausible, but if it's true and can be proven (which would be next to impossible), why didnt that come out years ago? I must also add I dont know why Dwyer's been sitting on the info all this time. He says he's writing a book. I suggest he write a little faster...
    Dwyer has been reluctant because of a threat of lawsuit from the Valens family. I THINK (if I remember right) they threaten to sue for slander but now that it's been 50 years I believe everything is fair game. Supposedly the book has been written for a while now and he is now looking for a publisher.

  26. #476
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Duluth, MN
    Posts
    207
    I'd be the first to buy a copy! I am skeptical about the official story. Too many things unexplained. And Roger Peterson was an easy scapegoat...
    "Anytime I see something screech across a room and latch onto someone's neck, and the guy screams and tries to get it off, I have to laugh, because what is that thing." -Jack Handey

  27. #477
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    4,648
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Okay, I came up with this theory a couple of years ago after I heard this. A few years back, Jerry Dwyer (owner of the plane, and YES he still has it!) allowed crash victim family members to view the wreckage. Apparently things didn't go well after the Valens family got a chance to view and talk with Mr. Dwyer, this according to Jerry himself. He would not say what was said but did say that the Valens family was VERY upset by things he said and by his theory as to what happened on the plane. If I remember right, the Valens family sued Mr. Dwyer after the crash and I don't believe they won.
    Here is my theory........Ritchie did not like flying. He did fly before this but in a larger plane, but he really did not like flying. So what happens when you put somebody, that doesn't like flying, on a SMALL plane? He probably thought nothing of it at the time since his friend Buddy was the one chartering the plane, so when he found out about it, he wanted in! So he bugged Tommy Allsup all night that night. Tommy kept saying NO. When they were leaving the Surf, after the concert, Tommy was asked by Buddy to go back in and check to make sure they got everything, so he went in by the stage door and there was Ritchie asking Tommy ONE MORE TIME if he could fly....finally, just to put an end to it, Tommy said FINE, I'll flip you for it and pulled out a 50 cent piece. Ritchie called heads. They went back outside to the car and Tommy told Ritchie that if it's okay with Buddy to go ahead....and Buddy said it was fine (and laughed at Tommy). Tommy gave Buddy his wallet and I.D. to pick up a letter in Moorhead and away they went.
    Well, like I said.....when somebody who isn't really used to flying in a small plane gets in and the plane takes off and does things that a larger plane doesn't do, you panic a little (or in this case, I think it was a LOT). Ritchie was sitting behind Buddy...as the plane was accelerating and taking off (they actually took off to the S.E. and looped around to head N.W.), my theory is that Ritchie immediately had a panic attack and wanted to get off. It was at this time that Buddy turned around to Ritchie and tried calming him down and while doing that, I believe that Buddy either hit a switch of some sort (without knowledge by the pilot) or possibly Buddy's large coat got caught on the steering controls and while they were trying to get him un-tangled, the plane was descending instead of ascending and by the time the pilot realized this, he over-corrected the situation and the plane hit the ground going a couple of hundred miles per hour. You must remember, they weren't up there very long. A pilot knows that when you pull back on the controls the plane goes up....push in and the plane goes down. The plane was going down almost immediately after making the turn to head in the N.W. direction. Why? There had to have been some kind of disturbance. There was NOT a snowstorm but there were good, strong winds on the ground. The sky was actually clear that night but snow was blowing across the roads and runway but that was from fresh snow that fell earlier. So my thinking is that there was something going on inside the plane. I think Ritchie had a massive panic-attack and I believe that's POSSIBLY what Mr. Dwyer came up with as well and when he told the Valens family this, they became upset not believing that it could have been him that may have caused the crash. In everybody's mind, it was pilot error.....PERIOD. Well, I don't believe it was Roger Peterson's fault at all. I believe something happened on the plane and he tried to get the plane back UP as soon as he realized they were going down but it was just too late. Maybe he was trying to get back to the airport after all, to let Ritchie get off, after all the RIGHT wing tip hit the ground, so was he trying to turn back but they were just too low to the ground? Think about it.......try to imagine these scenarios and let me know what you think. Am I crazy? Am I on the right track? PLEASE GIVE ME YOUR THOUGHTS.
    Again, I have NEVER heard Mr. Dwyer's theory to the crash. He is writing a book that he hopes to have out within a year, so we will find out then what his thoughts are, but after hearing SO MANY stories thru the years, this is what I came up with. I brought it up with a couple of other Holly fans before and they think I may be on to something.
    Another question I've always had was this.......why was the Big Bopper naked when he was found (except for underwear and socks)? Everybody else was fully clothed, why was he the only one that had his clothes "ripped" off? He was quite sick that night and I'm sure it was hot and stuffy on the plane and he was a rather large guy....was he taking his jacket and shirt off to cool off while this was going on with Buddy and Ritchie? Was he taking his stuff off FOR Ritchie to wear? All of these things go through my mind.........TELL ME I'M CRAZY!!!!!!!!!!!
    Damn! That makes more sense to me than anything else I've read.
    "What if the Hokey Pokey is what it's really all about?" Jimmy Buffett

  28. #478
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    61
    great speculation, but who knows, to much time has passed to prove anything now.

  29. #479
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Southeast
    Posts
    679
    Wow, what an interesting theory! I have heard such conflicting reports on Valen's fear of flying. I knew La Bamba made a huge deal out of it for effect, but I wasn't sure how afraid he truly was. Considering the accident that happened before, it would seem quite possible he did have a fear. Also, if he had not flown in planes of that size before, his true reaction would have been previously unknown.

    I discuss the accident a lot with my partner, as I'm quite the Buddy Holly fan, if you couldn't have guessed, and I'm always so curious what happened in that short amount of time in the plane. The fact we will never know is both irritating, and what makes it so intriguing. I'd love to know though, and if Dwyer has anyway of knowing the truth I'd love to hear it. I've been eagerly looking forward to his book.

    I was really upset I didn't make it to Clear Lake in February for the 50th. I'm planning quite the road trip next year though and hoping to make it to both Lubbock and Clear Lake.

  30. #480
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Duluth, MN
    Posts
    538
    Personally, I wasn't impressed with the 50th show in Clear Lake this year.....they had a LOT better shows in the past. I'll be glad when things get back to "normal" next year. As for the crash, Dwyer mentioned many times that Peterson was supposed to radio back, as soon as he got in the air, with his flight plan. But he never did and Dwyer hung around at the airport waiting for that message.....could it be because there were too many things going on in the plane, such as Ritchie's meltdown and everybody trying to calm him down? Jerry even said to the guy in the control tower that he thought he was watching the plane going down at the time, but the tower guy said it was an illusion since they were flying away towards the horizon. Jerry still wasn't sure and hung around then finally went home after the plane never did send the flight plan. In the morning, Jerry called the Fargo/Moorhead airport and they told him the plane never arrived. That's when Jerry went up and took the same path he knew they were heading, to see if he could find anything. When he came upon the crash, at first he thought it was a small pig stand by the fence until he went closer to the ground and saw it was a small plane and he saw the bodies lying outside of the crash. He knew then..............

  31. #481
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    208
    Gary, being a pilot I am usually doubtful of any theory beyond what the NTSB says, but yours makes perfect sense. I'm not saying I'm sure it's what happened, but it is a good alternate theory.
    Aside from this thread I hadn't heard that the snowstorm wasn't very bad. But even a snowstorm that seems benign on the ground can cause problems in the air, especially if the plane had strobe lights on it. And if the pilot is dealing with a major distraction, while trying to take off into snow, a tragedy is pretty likely.

    Lisa, I haven't heard of misreading an attitude indicator as a primary cause for a crash, but it's possible. I know my students occasionally misread it. I I remember correctly the Bonanza Buddy was in had a black and white attitude indicator. Newer aircraft usually have a blue and brown one beacuse it is easier to interpret (blue, like the sky, should be up). It's very possible that the Pilot interpreted the instrument improperly.


    Gary's post brought up another possiblity for me. Imagine Richie throws a fit right after takeoff. Rather than Buddy Holly turning around and catching his jacket on the controls, perhaps Roger Peterson turns around to face him and calm him down. Even if it's just for a moment, turning his head can cause what are known as somatographic illusions. These can lead to vertigo.
    A properly trained instrument pilot knows that when vertigo sets in you concentrate on the instruments and trust them. Although Peterson had experience with the aircraft, I don't believe he was instrument rated, and may not have had much expereince in poor weather conditions. One of the demonstrations I give to my students to demonstrate vertigo is to have them try flying the aircraft with their eyes closed. We start straight and level, no turns no climbs, and all they have to do is stay that way. It never fails that within 15-30 seconds we are dropping out of the sky with a 45-60 degree bank, this is very similar to what happened to JFKjr. In the begining of their training even when I tell them to open their eyes and fix the situation, they still can't do it. The mind takes a while to realize that what it thought was happening, really wasn't.

    With the plane at a low altitude, the weather conditions less than optimal, even if the snowstorm wasn't that bad on the ground, I don't see it as any stretch that Peterson could have gotten vertigo and not been able to fix it.

  32. #482
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Cleveland
    Posts
    1,145
    There's been all kinds of theories on that crash and whether it was pilot error or not. Some say a new artificial horizon instrument on the craft threw the pilot and that caused the crash. Of course, others say the weather really was terrible and the pilot and Jerry Dwyer didn't receive the advisories. You can read about those theories in this article:

    http://adventurebooks.newsvine.com/_...ually-happened

    Jerry Dwyer always defends his pilot, saying Roger was quite familiar with the plane and that something else must have happened to distract him (like Gary's theory). I've even heard speculation that Buddy Holly himself was at the controls since he had been taking flying lessons and crashed the plane himself. I can't quite buy that one

    I like Gary's theory.

  33. #483
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Duluth, MN
    Posts
    207
    Tried to find "The Day the Music Died" at Barnes & Noble. They said it's out of print. They also said that Peggy Sue's book is out of print. Is this true? I will have to go to amazon.
    "Anytime I see something screech across a room and latch onto someone's neck, and the guy screams and tries to get it off, I have to laugh, because what is that thing." -Jack Handey

  34. #484
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Duluth, MN
    Posts
    538
    Quote Originally Posted by racingfan View Post
    There's been all kinds of theories on that crash and whether it was pilot error or not. Some say a new artificial horizon instrument on the craft threw the pilot and that caused the crash. Of course, others say the weather really was terrible and the pilot and Jerry Dwyer didn't receive the advisories. You can read about those theories in this article:

    http://adventurebooks.newsvine.com/_...ually-happened

    Jerry Dwyer always defends his pilot, saying Roger was quite familiar with the plane and that something else must have happened to distract him (like Gary's theory). I've even heard speculation that Buddy Holly himself was at the controls since he had been taking flying lessons and crashed the plane himself. I can't quite buy that one

    I like Gary's theory.
    Thank you, racingfan. To think that Buddy was flying the plane is ridiculous. He was sweaty and stinky in clothes that haven't been washed for days plus he was tired and wanted to get to Fargo to get a good night's sleep and wash clothes. No way was he flying the plane, especially that soon after take-off.

  35. #485
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Duluth, MN
    Posts
    538
    Quote Originally Posted by ***diana*** View Post
    Tried to find "The Day the Music Died" at Barnes & Noble. They said it's out of print. They also said that Peggy Sue's book is out of print. Is this true? I will have to go to amazon.
    You can get Peggy Sue's book from her website:
    http://www.peggysueonline.com/
    And you can get Larry's book at Amazon cheaper than on ebay.

  36. #486
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    270
    Have you checked your local library? That's what I did, although at some point Id like to own a copy.

  37. #487
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Cleveland
    Posts
    1,145
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Thank you, racingfan. To think that Buddy was flying the plane is ridiculous. He was sweaty and stinky in clothes that haven't been washed for days plus he was tired and wanted to get to Fargo to get a good night's sleep and wash clothes. No way was he flying the plane, especially that soon after take-off.
    You're welcome, Gary. I know, that cracked me up, to think of the pilot getting ready to take off and saying, "Hey Buddy, why don't you take the controls for a bit?" From what Dwyer says, Peterson was a good pilot and he knew that plane. I never entirely bought the pilot error conclusion. I didn't buy the shooting idea either, though that's been basically disproved (unless they dig up Buddy and Ritchie and discover a bullet hole in one of them). I am curious though as to why J.P. was unclothed too. I know when planes crash, a lot of times there's not much left of the victims, but why would clothes come off like that but the body stay in one piece? Besides the millions of broken bones, the exhumation showed that his body was intact -- no missing limbs, etc.

  38. #488
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Duluth, MN
    Posts
    207
    I also read somewhere that Buddy's toiletry bag should have contained about $1000 (payment from last show). Was that ever accounted for? I know that Buddy had money on him, but not near that amount. I have never seen that money mentioned on any document.
    "Anytime I see something screech across a room and latch onto someone's neck, and the guy screams and tries to get it off, I have to laugh, because what is that thing." -Jack Handey

  39. #489
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Duluth, MN
    Posts
    538
    Yeah, I've thought about that quite a bit, too, diana. I'm thinking that MAYBE the road manager, Sam Geller, had the bulk of the money for Waylon's and Tommy's needs. We know Buddy had some money on him because the coroner took his fees right off of the bodies. Bopper and Ritchie didn't have much on them so I'm guessing Sam Geller had the money.

  40. #490
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Southeast
    Posts
    679
    Someone simulated the flight and posted it to youtube here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P-GbYiKg2U

    Rather interesting, and I believe somewhat accurate at least with the instruments and such, except of course for the changes they had to make for it to be viewable such as having it in the daytime.

    I thought someone might enjoy it.

  41. #491
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Duluth, MN
    Posts
    538
    Very interesting. Thanks for posting!
    Last edited by Gary; 05-12-2009 at 06:12 PM. Reason: add text

  42. #492
    The National Transportation and Safety Board's Report on Buddy Holly et al plane crash.

    http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/1959/CAB_2-3-1959.pdf

  43. #493
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Duluth, MN
    Posts
    538
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucy Riccardo View Post
    The National Transportation and Safety Board's Report on Buddy Holly et al plane crash.

    http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/1959/CAB_2-3-1959.pdf
    I've seen and read that a million times.

  44. #494
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Broomfield,Colorado. Originally from Meriden, CT.
    Posts
    1,008
    I have "The Day The Music Died" too, and I think it's a fabulous book. Another good one is "Rave On" by Philip Norman. He writes a lot about what happened to the Clovis, New Mexico recording studio, after Buddy died. Philip Norman did most definitely not like Norman Petty, and blamed him, indirectly, for Buddy's death. He also insinuates that Vi Petty was a lesbian and an employee of Norman and Vi "serviced them both". If you get past the gossip and innuendo of the book, it is a good historical reference about Buddy's life.
    It is kind of sad to read in "Rave On" about the shambles the Clovis studio became, before it was restored, to become a museum. Long story, short, when Norman Petty died, he left the recording studio to Vi, who decided to abandon it, except to let her hundreds of cats live in there. Well, you can pretty much imagine what a hundred stray cats can do to a recording studio, if allowed to roam free in it.
    Of course, the books to own about Buddy are the ones written by John Goldrosen and John Beecher. "The Buddy Holly Story" and " Remembering Buddy". The discographies in these books are very detailed and all inclusive.
    I wish I had a chance to meet Bill Griggs, when he still lived in my home state of Connecticut. By the time I was old enough to know who he was, he had already moved to Texas.

    "So many faces in and out of my life. Some will last, some will just be now and then. Life is a series of Hellos and Goodbyes, I'm afraid it's time for Goodbye again. "

  45. #495
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    3
    As a pilot myself I feel I can offer some facts,Ok these are all great theories and make for an interesting book or movie, but let me address a few reasons of reality. Gary stated maybe buddy got hung up on the yoke controls if this did happen while Buddy was turning around it would have pulled the yoke back sending the aircraft nose in an upper AOA (angle of attack) and as far as hitting any buttons on a 1947 Beech there are no critical buttons to hit on the Passenger side of the Aircraft all controls are on the PF side not the PNF side. Heres what i have pieced together through painstaking recreation including using a simulator. The Pilot was not highly competent with instrument flying IFR as a matter of fact failed his wriiten only short time before this flight. THe NTSB and FAA found the A/C had hit the ground at 170 mph on its starboard wingtip causing it to start a series of forward cartwheels. The incredible level of impact of this type of crash can mos certainly tear clothing away from the victims. It is dependant where they are sitting, what hit them how did they get ejected etc. So as someone whos seen 100s of accidents and traumas its not unusual to see clothing removed on some but not others.This info is confirmed by the instruments and control surfacers position durin the crash investigation. Based on when they took off it was blowing snow a low cloud cover of about 3000ft and extremely cold, this will frost up windows extensively with 4 ppl in the plane, poor heating in those old beeches. No window heat system at all would have definitely caused a foggy window effect coupled with it being dark and a low cloud ceiling further steals any moonlight that may be available and finally it was very rural landscape so reference ground lighting is almost none.This would mean only reference pilot really had was instruments and interesting enough for those of you who don't know, lighting in those planes is not like inyour car, its very very dim and numbers are hard to read. Even in todays small aircraft its tricky sometimes, but in a 1947 A/C it would be very poor lighting as well as any extreme cold conditions always has efects on lights brightness intensity in A/C. The final nail in the coffin is the sperry gyroscope it indeed reads in reverse from any currently available today and is extremely easy at quick glance to be misread as desending turen to climbing turn or vice versa. I believe Richie was nervous and over headset probably said so, Buddy and bopper probably tried to calm him and joke, Pilot also probably flipped his head back towards Richie to encourage him etc taking his attention away from controls in that time didnt notice small detail on gyro and I can say from experience when your doing things and flying its very very easy to not notice the yoke is pushed in or pulled out abit and at hat speed and altitude your time to react if you do realize an error is so short its almost impossible. so as all these other theories are far more colorful this one is most logical and fct based. sorry to rain on the parade.
    Last edited by Reverend; 05-14-2009 at 09:30 AM.

  46. #496
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Duluth, MN
    Posts
    538
    No rain on the parade, rev........thanks for the insight!! One thing I do have to say, though, is that Jerry Dwyer AND Bob Hale both swear that the stars were out that night with loose snow being blown around at ground level and across the highways, but they said it was NOT snowing that night. The snow being blown was from an earlier fall.

  47. #497
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Duluth, MN
    Posts
    538
    Quote Originally Posted by "What Tha....?" View Post
    I have "The Day The Music Died" too, and I think it's a fabulous book. Another good one is "Rave On" by Philip Norman. He writes a lot about what happened to the Clovis, New Mexico recording studio, after Buddy died. Philip Norman did most definitely not like Norman Petty, and blamed him, indirectly, for Buddy's death. He also insinuates that Vi Petty was a lesbian and an employee of Norman and Vi "serviced them both". If you get past the gossip and innuendo of the book, it is a good historical reference about Buddy's life.
    It is kind of sad to read in "Rave On" about the shambles the Clovis studio became, before it was restored, to become a museum. Long story, short, when Norman Petty died, he left the recording studio to Vi, who decided to abandon it, except to let her hundreds of cats live in there. Well, you can pretty much imagine what a hundred stray cats can do to a recording studio, if allowed to roam free in it.
    Of course, the books to own about Buddy are the ones written by John Goldrosen and John Beecher. "The Buddy Holly Story" and " Remembering Buddy". The discographies in these books are very detailed and all inclusive.
    I wish I had a chance to meet Bill Griggs, when he still lived in my home state of Connecticut. By the time I was old enough to know who he was, he had already moved to Texas.
    The Crickets don't have many nice things to say about Norman, either, so I can believe anything nasty about him. As for the studio, a friend of mine went there a few years back and said there were tapes, sheet musics, LPs, and even some ORIGINAL "Prism Records" business cards lying all over the place. Says he probably could have walked out with stuff but played it safe by not taking anything.

  48. #498
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Duluth, MN
    Posts
    207
    Somebody helped Vi clean it up and restore it before the filming of McCartney's documentary "The Real Buddy Holly Story." If I remember correctly, it took a LOT of work.
    "Anytime I see something screech across a room and latch onto someone's neck, and the guy screams and tries to get it off, I have to laugh, because what is that thing." -Jack Handey

  49. #499
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    270
    I wonder why she would let it go that bad. Seems kinda brainless to me, unless she was tired of all the Norman-bashing stories and that was her revenge. I too had heard that EVERYTHIG in the studio had been peed on by her cats. What an idiot.

  50. #500
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Duluth, MN
    Posts
    207
    She was schizophrenic and had some other problems. That is probably why she let it all go.
    "Anytime I see something screech across a room and latch onto someone's neck, and the guy screams and tries to get it off, I have to laugh, because what is that thing." -Jack Handey

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •