Challenger and Other Space Tragedies

[cash]

last moments alive of the Columbia crew, you can detect the Indian astronaut's accent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45r6Ow1tQlM&feature=related



Dr Kalpana Chawala

the video ended 4 minutes before destruction.

[Lout_Rampage]

K I promise I'll stop now

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3078060/

Actually, I was enjoying that

[trose]

How does not wearing your gloves kill a person during depressurization.....anyone know?

I'm certainly no expert, but from the reading I did tonight the gloves as part of their suit, along with the helmet, would help keep the body stable and oxygen available during re-entry.

Depressurization is a reduction of pressure in a vehicle. Planes have to be pressurized above certain altitudes, 10,000 feet if I am not mistaken.

The depressurization here caused the oxygen to be sucked out of the cabin, causing unconsciousness and/or death.

So the wing had a hole in it, which caused hot gases & stuff to get in during reentry, which caused depressurization & break up of the shuttle.

At least, that's how I read it. Maybe someone more knowledgeable has a better answer.

Any way you look at it, not a pleasant way to go and it is certainly a tragedy as far as I'm concerned.

[lane4]

Here is a great clip from the Seconds From Disaster about Columbia. It's only 10 minutes long but was well done. The animation makes it clearer in my mind as to what happened.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8SDw...ext=1&index=20#

From the Apollo1 Mission - Roger B. Chaffee was from my home town. Those poor guys, reading the transcripts is chilling.

A lot of great info & links you all provided. Now to explain to my husband why I was up all night.

[monroe27]

I would never want to go into space. Sad.

[Frazzzld Kat]

Am I the only one who thinks the more grisly details of these people's death should be redacted?

We know they died a horrific death, and Death Hag or not, I think it's in a bit of poor taste.

I know, I know, I never thought I'd be typing that, either.

Well at least you didn't ask for any pics! (j/k)

[neilmpenny]

Apollo One pictures that I have never seen before

http://www.geocities.com/rocket_man_2020/A1_fire.html

Awesome, not seen a few of them myself before and I consider myself to be an Apollo junkie.....

[Finnegan]

any pics?

[Finnegan]

Actually, I was enjoying that

me too.
good job, miho!

[McCourt]

I'm with you. I understand that people needed to study what happened so they could fix the problem; however, those details could have been released to just those people in charge of fixing the problem and not released to the whole public. Basically all it says is even if everything had been done right after the first thing went wrong, they still would have died. And does the family really need to know that one of the men was still alive for a minute and a half? Can you imagine what the families of the men are thinking? Hoping it wasn't their loved one, hoping it was. Nothing changes the fact that their loved ones died in a pretty graphic way. The families don't need to know specifics.

Giada's story is really sad. I can't imagine what the Challenger crew was thinking or going through.

Believe me, I understand what you're saying, but what murder victim's family has had to sit through the trial of the murderer and not hear how their loved one was tortured, raped and murdered and been shown the pictures? What about all the victims from 9/11? There's no easy way for families of the dead to hear about their loved one's last moments, but unfortunately sometimes there's not anything that can be done about it. Certainly, this is a choice those family members will have to make. No one is going to sit there and read it to them without their consent or force them to read it. Death is never easy for loved ones to deal with. When, as someone mentioned earlier, that loved one makes their living with public funds, the public does have a right to know.

[crazedfemale]

That's why I won't go into space until they make it survivor-proof.

[orionova]

I would go into space without a second thought. I want to see the Earth from above. I want to see new worlds. If doing so led to my death, so be it. I can't think of a better way to go.

[DexterKitty]

K I promise I'll stop now

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3078060/

Don't stop!!! This is good stuff. Great find.... thanks for posting it.

[Miho]

For what it's worth ....

I lived in Las Vegas, Nevada between 1993-1998 and met a woman who was an engineer at the test site. She stated to me the inside of the cabin is broadcast internally, (NASA) during shuttle flights.

She said the astronauts were alive during the descent of of the Challenger shuttle, and conscious until they struck water. It was extremely traumatic for those who were viewing the events. I didn't ask for details and saw the stress she suffered simply from mentioning it.

So were they also able to hear any words that were spoken or could they talk to the astronauts to try to "calm" them during their last minutes?

[Miho]

I'm certainly no expert, but from the reading I did tonight the gloves as part of their suit, along with the helmet, would help keep the body stable and oxygen available during re-entry.

Depressurization is a reduction of pressure in a vehicle. Planes have to be pressurized above certain altitudes, 10,000 feet if I am not mistaken.

The depressurization here caused the oxygen to be sucked out of the cabin, causing unconsciousness and/or death.

So the wing had a hole in it, which caused hot gases & stuff to get in during reentry, which caused depressurization & break up of the shuttle.

At least, that's how I read it. Maybe someone more knowledgeable has a better answer.

Any way you look at it, not a pleasant way to go and it is certainly a tragedy as far as I'm concerned.

Sounds about right to me

The gloves actually connected to the suit with a ring. That sealed the gloves onto the suit. Without them the effects would be the same as if they weren't wearing a suit at all.

I guess the Columbia crew had their space suits sucked off of them. If you didn't have your gloves on and rapid decompression happened. Well my gut tells me there is a chance your body could get sucked through the glove hole

I could be wrong though.

[Miho]

last moments alive of the Columbia crew, you can detect the Indian astronaut's accent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45r6Ow1tQlM&feature=related



Dr Kalpana Chawala

the video ended 4 minutes before destruction.

At least it gives me hope that their end was quick and relatively painless. If at 4 minutes before they don't seem to know anything is wrong.

[STsFirstmate]

I'm certainly no expert, but from the reading I did tonight the gloves as part of their suit, along with the helmet, would help keep the body stable and oxygen available during re-entry.

Depressurization is a reduction of pressure in a vehicle. Planes have to be pressurized above certain altitudes, 10,000 feet if I am not mistaken.

The depressurization here caused the oxygen to be sucked out of the cabin, causing unconsciousness and/or death.

So the wing had a hole in it, which caused hot gases & stuff to get in during reentry, which caused depressurization & break up of the shuttle.

At least, that's how I read it. Maybe someone more knowledgeable has a better answer.

Any way you look at it, not a pleasant way to go and it is certainly a tragedy as far as I'm concerned.

You are right. I am an engineer and spent a portion of my career developing qualification programs for components delivered for the shuttle. From the very beginning before the first shuttle every flew the predictive analysis from NASA indicated a loss of shuttle per decade and it has worked out to be just about on the money.
It is a very complex machine with primarily outdated mechanics, avionics and electronics. Virtually no attention was given initially to crew survival and rescue during launch and reentry. All the rescure scenarios were predicated on an orbiting vehicle.
Post-Challenger I would have expected increased efforts and new technology to be applied to suborbital crew survival and rescue. In reality it seems those efforts were minimal and what little they did was ineffective. Even if they survived the initial turbulance and secured their suits properly and the seat harness reels acrually worked there was still no viable way to escape the vehicle. They were doomed.
Remember Payne Stewart the pro golfer who was on the private jet that decompressed unexpectedly. They were incapacitated immediately and a jet figter escort followed the plane which was flying on autopilot with frosted up windows until they ran out of fuel. Had it begun to looklike they were going to go down in a populated area the fighter would have taken them out before they got there.
In these circumstances they go bad quickly and for now at least irrevokably.
Regards,
Mary

[Giada]

So were they also able to hear any words that were spoken or could they talk to the astronauts to try to "calm" them during their last minutes?

I am sorry ... I wish I could provide more info. I couldn't ask her what she witnessed. I don't know why it didn't occur to me that NASA did not have internal camera's rolling.

She is very forthright, lowered and shook her head when I asked about the Challenger, and I let go of further conversation.

Frig ... sometimes ...there just is a limit to pain.

[Miho]

I am sorry ... I wish I could provide more info. I couldn't ask her what she witnessed. I don't know why it didn't occur to me that NASA did not have internal camera's rolling.

She is very forthright, lowered and shook her head when I asked about the Challenger, and I let go of further conversation.

Frig ... sometimes ...there just is a limit to pain.

Oh no please don't be sorry. I wouldn't have pressed her further either. I was just grasping for some opinions as to what others think. I really do not know if there was a time gap in transmission or if communications were even possible.

[LadyCurry]

Good Lord...I remember being in kindergarten at my tiny little school...the entire school was in the library watching the launch of the Challenger...I remember it all the excitement of watching my first shuttle launch, then the horror of the explosion. We were all released for the rest of the day...but we were little kids.

Like a previous poster said...just the knowing that you witnessed people dieing- that feeling never leaves...kind of like 9-11

[Screwtape]

Got Challenger. The first is the Challenger Memorial in Arlington where they buried all the leftover unidentifiable pieces, and the second is the commander.

[Brianruns10]

I've been a space history buff, and the disasters have especially fascinated me: challenger, Columbia. The first U.S. space disaster though was the Apollo One launch pad fire that killed Gus Grissom, Ed White and Roger Chaffee. For years many of the details of this accident were kept obscured: photographs, the circumstances surrounding the three men's deaths. I don't believe it was conspiracy, but just NASA's well intentioned attempts to protect the families. I understood this more clearly when I had the chance to hear the so called "black channel" tapes: the audio recordings of transmissions between the astronauts and mission control. The actual fire is quite short before the audio cuts out, but what is on that audio is the most haunting, horrific thing I've ever come across (and I thought I'd seen/heard it all). As a historian, I don't regret having heard them, but they are still utterly unforgetable.

Recently, I located a documentary on youtube that contained the audio I had heard. The film itself is the same old moon hoax conspiracy crap. But the audio is absolutely, 100% authentic, and if anyone has further questions, I'll be glad to try to answer them as best I can.

Here's the link. The actual "event" occurs at 6:38 in the video timeline, inand ends at 6:58 with the audible rupture of hte pressurized space capsule...and the screams of Roger Chaffee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oZ-clvq7ZY

One last warning. It is GRAPHIC. You will hear men die. Fair warning.

[Jerseysucks]

WOW.

[cindyt]

I've been a space history buff, and the disasters have especially fascinated me: challenger, Columbia. The first U.S. space disaster though was the Apollo One launch pad fire that killed Gus Grissom, Ed White and Roger Chaffee. For years many of the details of this accident were kept obscured: photographs, the circumstances surrounding the three men's deaths. I don't believe it was conspiracy, but just NASA's well intentioned attempts to protect the families. I understood this more clearly when I had the chance to hear the so called "black channel" tapes: the audio recordings of transmissions between the astronauts and mission control. The actual fire is quite short before the audio cuts out, but what is on that audio is the most haunting, horrific thing I've ever come across (and I thought I'd seen/heard it all). As a historian, I don't regret having heard them, but they are still utterly unforgetable.

Recently, I located a documentary on youtube that contained the audio I had heard. The film itself is the same old moon hoax conspiracy crap. But the audio is absolutely, 100% authentic, and if anyone has further questions, I'll be glad to try to answer them as best I can.

Here's the link. The actual "event" occurs at 6:38 in the video timeline, inand ends at 6:58 with the audible rupture of hte pressurized space capsule...and the screams of Roger Chaffee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oZ-clvq7ZY

One last warning. It is GRAPHIC. You will hear men die. Fair warning.

I was watching the news when this went down. RIP

[Inked_Daddy]

Sad stuff to hear. Nice post though... this is one of the more interesting things that have been posted her in awhile.

[Alanwench]

I've been a space history buff, and the disasters have especially fascinated me: challenger, Columbia. The first U.S. space disaster though was the Apollo One launch pad fire that killed Gus Grissom, Ed White and Roger Chaffee. For years many of the details of this accident were kept obscured: photographs, the circumstances surrounding the three men's deaths. I don't believe it was conspiracy, but just NASA's well intentioned attempts to protect the families. I understood this more clearly when I had the chance to hear the so called "black channel" tapes: the audio recordings of transmissions between the astronauts and mission control. The actual fire is quite short before the audio cuts out, but what is on that audio is the most haunting, horrific thing I've ever come across (and I thought I'd seen/heard it all). As a historian, I don't regret having heard them, but they are still utterly unforgetable.

Recently, I located a documentary on youtube that contained the audio I had heard. The film itself is the same old moon hoax conspiracy crap. But the audio is absolutely, 100% authentic, and if anyone has further questions, I'll be glad to try to answer them as best I can.

Here's the link. The actual "event" occurs at 6:38 in the video timeline, inand ends at 6:58 with the audible rupture of hte pressurized space capsule...and the screams of Roger Chaffee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oZ-clvq7ZY

One last warning. It is GRAPHIC. You will hear men die. Fair warning.

It's absolutely horrifying to hear.

[Philliefan]

I'll pass on this one. Good info, thanks BrianRuns10.

[Pat Bateman]

I've been a space history buff, and the disasters have especially fascinated me: challenger, Columbia. The first U.S. space disaster though was the Apollo One launch pad fire that killed Gus Grissom, Ed White and Roger Chaffee. For years many of the details of this accident were kept obscured: photographs, the circumstances surrounding the three men's deaths. I don't believe it was conspiracy, but just NASA's well intentioned attempts to protect the families. I understood this more clearly when I had the chance to hear the so called "black channel" tapes: the audio recordings of transmissions between the astronauts and mission control. The actual fire is quite short before the audio cuts out, but what is on that audio is the most haunting, horrific thing I've ever come across (and I thought I'd seen/heard it all). As a historian, I don't regret having heard them, but they are still utterly unforgetable.



Recently, I located a documentary on youtube that contained the audio I had heard. The film itself is the same old moon hoax conspiracy crap. But the audio is absolutely, 100% authentic, and if anyone has further questions, I'll be glad to try to answer them as best I can.

Here's the link. The actual "event" occurs at 6:38 in the video timeline, inand ends at 6:58 with the audible rupture of hte pressurized space capsule...and the screams of Roger Chaffee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oZ-clvq7ZY

One last warning. It is GRAPHIC. You will hear men die. Fair warning.

I didn't think it was that bad...I've heard worse. Not to downplay the horror of the situation itself, of course.

[punklove]

So gloves would have prolonged their lives and probably would have let them burn to death instead of just passing out. Yeah that sounds a lot better thanks!

That is exactly what I thought! Id like my death to be as fast as possible, thanks.

[Miho]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0V-Z...eature=related

[MaxyMillions]

I was a senior in high school the day the Challenger exploded. I'd had a particularly invasive stomach procedure that morning, and when we got home the explosion was all over the news. I plopped into my dad's recliner and watched everything I could. Made me forget about "The Violation", lol.

Awesome thread-I was fascinated by the info.

[Dulcinea]

I didn't see a thread devoted to this, so I hope there isn't one already. Here is an interesting article I found about the (possible) last minutes of the 7 astronauts aboard in 1986. I was in Kindergarten when this happened.

http://www.lutins.org/nasa.html

[Lout_Rampage]

I didn't see a thread devoted to this, so I hope there isn't one already. Here is an interesting article I found about the (possible) last minutes of the 7 astronauts aboard in 1986. I was in Kindergarten when this happened.

http://www.lutins.org/nasa.html

Wow, great article! Thanks for posting!

[stacebabe]

I will never forget it. I remember the buildup in my school. Christa was from New England, which I am too, so it was a VERY BIG DEAL in the New England Schools.

I was in 5th grade in Walpole and I remember my teacher pulling out a TV with a live stream, and we all watched it blow up. I remember the collective, "Should it be doing that?" look my classmates and I gave, and my teacher's gaping mouth. So very sad - it didn't take long for us to realize that it shouldn't be doing what it was doing.

[sheri]

I was about 2 years out of high school when the Challenger went. At about the same time, I was employed by a company that makes parts for NASA, as well as parts for planes (commercial and military), and there was a very sad feeling for a long time, because the company and employees all thought that the o ring that failed came from the company I worked for. Then someone started putting things together and discovered that we (the company) did not make o rings that size at the time. I don't know about now, since I lost my job with them in November 1987 (Black Monday occurred in October 1987...the stock market crashed, and the next month huge layoffs).

Anyways, may all of those who lost their lives in all NASA related incidents eternally rest in peace. As President Reagan said in his eulogy of the Challenger astronauts: "They have slipped the surly bond of Earth, and touched the face of God."

[STsFirstmate]

I think I posted earlier in the thread that I worked for a company that provided mission critical shuttle parts and we were therefore, included on distribution of the final NASA failure analysis report and they were indeed most likely all alive when they hit the water.
Of more interest to me as an engineer was the horribly flawed decision making that permitted the launch to occur in the first place.
There is a little known movie called Challenger that featured Peter Boyle as the lone voice of reason against the launch and the machinations that beat down his opposition.
It is too easy to blame it on pressure from the White House because President Regan's State of the Union address was space themed. There was pressure but the real issue was the horrible engineering and manufacturing decisions that permitted all of this to happen.
Morton Thiokol was criminal in my professional opinion.
We have seen the same flawed logic repeated in corporate settings from Johnson and Johnson to Toyota.
The movie highlights the concept of "group think" where people stop thinking independently and critically and start to convince each other that their reasoning is sound despite contrary data.
It is the difference between "can't fail" ( it must be engineered, manufactured and controlled in such a way to mitigate and prevent failure) vs. "won't fail" the group think mindset that the work and concept for the item is so lofty failure is simply impossible (the Titantic sailing with insufficient lifeboats).
I have rented and shown the film as part of workshop's I have done with young engineers to try to bring home that real people can die when decision making is empirically flawed.
It is relevant and still worth a look today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_(1990_film)
Regards,
Mary

[Paulination]

I've finished going through this thread and man there is some interesting shit in here. Between the links and the insights of the hags this is absorbing. Good job to all who have contributed.

[Dulcinea]

The song "Drops of Jupiter" always reminds me of Columbia. On "Good Morning America" they did a link up with the Columbia astronauts while they were in space. One of the segments was how each of them had chosen a song to wake them. Kalpana Chawla had chosen that song, so I think of her specifically. Challenger happened when I was so young (5 years 8 months) that I think the horror of it for my generation was lost as we got older and we sort of "didn't think" about the dangers of space flight when Columbia happened. I remember this episode of GMA SO vividly because I didn't pay much attention to space flight and happened to catch this on the air and they were dead a week or so later

[rjbrasher]

Good stuff here, i always been fascinated with nasa. Pisses me off the cheap fuckers cant do proper maintenance. But nasa gotta go what it stands for N (need) A (another) S (seven) A (astronauts)

RIP to all those that followed there dream and died trying to get there or coming back

[Giada]

Groupthink has become a management tool and aid to industry change at all levels.

Study aircraft accidents and find the old, "command and control," style of cockpit management needed to change.

CRM is commonplace today, and minimizes error.

Morton Thiokol was under pressure for the launch, as well as NASA. I mentioned in an earlier post my g/f Sandy worked at the test site in Nevada. She believed both sides shared reponsibility.

[racingfan]

I am sorry ... I wish I could provide more info. I couldn't ask her what she witnessed. I don't know why it didn't occur to me that NASA did not have internal camera's rolling.

She is very forthright, lowered and shook her head when I asked about the Challenger, and I let go of further conversation.

Frig ... sometimes ...there just is a limit to pain.

I wonder if they were taping that live feed -- now THAT would be a holy grail we will never get to see...

[Giada]

I wonder if they were taping that live feed -- now THAT would be a holy grail we will never get to see...

Without asking Sandy, I have a feeling it was recorded. In investigating air disaster's the black box voice recordings coupled with aircraft data has been used for years. It seems unlikely to me NASA wouldn't have this in place.

The only other comment Sandy made was the entire group who witnessed the events at the test site, as they occurred, went into therapy.

Can you imagine ... these are people they worked with, knew as part of their community, everyone ... in shock.

[neilmpenny]

I think I posted earlier in the thread that I worked for a company that provided mission critical shuttle parts and we were therefore, included on distribution of the final NASA failure analysis report and they were indeed most likely all alive when they hit the water.
Of more interest to me as an engineer was the horribly flawed decision making that permitted the launch to occur in the first place.
There is a little known movie called Challenger that featured Peter Boyle as the lone voice of reason against the launch and the machinations that beat down his opposition.
It is too easy to blame it on pressure from the White House because President Regan's State of the Union address was space themed. There was pressure but the real issue was the horrible engineering and manufacturing decisions that permitted all of this to happen.
Morton Thiokol was criminal in my professional opinion.
We have seen the same flawed logic repeated in corporate settings from Johnson and Johnson to Toyota.
The movie highlights the concept of "group think" where people stop thinking independently and critically and start to convince each other that their reasoning is sound despite contrary data.
It is the difference between "can't fail" ( it must be engineered, manufactured and controlled in such a way to mitigate and prevent failure) vs. "won't fail" the group think mindset that the work and concept for the item is so lofty failure is simply impossible (the Titantic sailing with insufficient lifeboats).
I have rented and shown the film as part of workshop's I have done with young engineers to try to bring home that real people can die when decision making is empirically flawed.
It is relevant and still worth a look today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_(1990_film)
Regards,
Mary

There was an engineer at Morton Thiokol who raised red flags all the way down the line, probably that Peter Boyle character. He quit soon after and he racked his brain for years asking himself how he could have protested differently to stop the process.

NASA has released some pretty comprehensive footage of the disaster, most of which is in the video report commissioned by NASA.

[Fujicakes]

There was an engineer at Morton Thiokol who raised red flags all the way down the line, probably that Peter Boyle character. He quit soon after and he racked his brain for years asking himself how he could have protested differently to stop the process.

NASA has released some pretty comprehensive footage of the disaster, most of which is in the video report commissioned by NASA.

This guy?

[Jrwzeigle]

Spent some time at NASA this year as part of a family vacation. Very, very cool.
They have two tours that you must take if you go.
One is called the "Then & Now" tour. Takes you where the space program started: launchpads, etc. The coolest part was when we went to the Apollo 1 launch pad. I have some cool pics, but they are not cooperating right now to be attached. Damn pics.

The reason I mentioned this is that on this tour, they take you past where the Challenger parts & pieces were buried. They were put into an abandoned silo and then filled with concrete. Our tour guide was saying that after Columbia blew up that NASA wished that they hadn't done that with the Challenger. Something about relevance between disasters.

If you are ever there, please take that tour. Best afternoon spent.

[Giada]

This guy?

Thanks for posting the link Fujicakes ... feels like a hundred years since the Challenger. I haven't thought of it but briefly.

The one lone soul who was chastised within the company and lost his position. NASA, during this time, was constantly under pressure to launch.

[neilmpenny]

This guy?

You are good matey. Reminds me of the chick with the red tattoo in the movie.

[Giada]

One part of the series ... of several up on you tube with the Morton Thiokol engineer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00oVqRR6YHo&NR=1

[Alanwench]

I wonder if they were taping that live feed -- now THAT would be a holy grail we will never get to see...

While I would like to see that live feed, it would be so horrible to watch...knowing that the Challenger seven were aware of what was happening up until the end.

[Alanwench]

Without asking Sandy, I have a feeling it was recorded. In investigating air disaster's the black box voice recordings coupled with aircraft data has been used for years. It seems unlikely to me NASA wouldn't have this in place.

The only other comment Sandy made was the entire group who witnessed the events at the test site, as they occurred, went into therapy.

Can you imagine ... these are people they worked with, knew as part of their community, everyone ... in shock.

That was the first moment in my life that I can recall exactly where I was when I heard the news, my first experience with something like the previous generation's reacting to the news that Kennedy had been assassinated.