Page 5 of 7 FirstFirst ... 34567 LastLast
Results 201 to 250 of 311

Thread: Lizzie Borden gave her mother 40 whacks?

  1. #201
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Atlantic coastal
    Posts
    1,029
    Alfred Hitchcock presents his take on Lizzie - the older sister http://www.hulu.com/watch/275/alfred...e-older-sister

  2. #202
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX.
    Posts
    3,049
    Quote Originally Posted by Omerta View Post


    Borden House




    Last edited by Sam; 07-20-2010 at 05:41 PM.
    Visit my blog to read my memoir "Monster In The Closet".
    I welcome your coments and input.

    http://mymemoirmonsterinthecloset.blogspot.com/

  3. #203
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Atlantic coastal
    Posts
    1,029
    Can't drag and drop on this thing but Lizzie as a young girl in this link

    http://laurajames.typepad.com/photos...ostonglobe.jpg

  4. #204
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Atlantic coastal
    Posts
    1,029


    All male jury and just learned Elizabeth Montgomery was a cousin to Lizzie. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Leg...ie_Borden#Film

  5. #205
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    "But it's a dry heat" South. California
    Posts
    2,768
    Just checked the Lizzie Borden B & B website and on Aug 4, they are doing crime scene re-enactments with actors. Anyone live near there??? They also have some cool items in their giftshop like hatchet earrings and a Lizzie Borden bobblehead.

  6. #206
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Corralitos, Cal
    Posts
    6,996
    Quote Originally Posted by 1karenhb View Post
    They also have some cool items in their giftshop like hatchet earrings and a Lizzie Borden bobblehead.
    A bobblehead doll with an axe sticking out of the skull would be appropriate.

  7. #207
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,232
    Here is a link by TMZ about Chloe Sevigny spending the night in Lizzie Borden's bed (as you all know, the house in Fall River, Massachussetts where the murders took place is now a Bed and Breakfast).

    http://www.tmz.com/2010/10/29/chloe-...etts-pictures/[/SIZE]

    9 pictures at link.

    From TMZ:

    Chloe Sevigny -- You're a 19th Century Dead Man

    Chloe Sevigny is so obsessed with a brutal century-old murder in New England -- she slept in the house where the killer hacked up the bodies ... and as the legend goes, the place is haunted.
    You're looking at pics from the Lizzie Borden House in Fall River, Massachussetts -- named after a woman who allegedly murdered her elderly parents in cold blood, using nothing but a hatchet.
    Who'da thunk ... the famous house is now a bed and breakfast -- and Chloe was one of its most recent guests ... doing a dead-on corpse impression, and even spending the night in Lizzie Borden's old bed.
    For the record, Lizzie was accused of the murders but never convicted -- the creepy part ... no one else was ever arrested or tried


    "no one else was ever arrested or tried." - Kinda like OJ.
    Last edited by Pat MaGroin; 12-28-2010 at 11:43 AM.

  8. #208
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Gillespie, IL
    Posts
    638
    I have not read all of the posts yet , my bad, please forgive me if this has already been addressed. Does anyone know how long it was from the time the murders were committed until the time of the coroner showing up? I know that the blood was congealed but, wasn't sure on the time. Well, I guess I need to know how long it was before Lizzy "found" her parents and she contacted someone and time of death. The reason I am asking is blood HAD to have been everywhere, more-so than with menses, the reason for burning the dress. It would have been in her hair (along with other matters) and all the hell over her. If she was to wash her hair, and I am assuming it was long and it looks fairly thick, it would have taken a LONG time to dry. I know this because of my own hair. There were no hair dryers back then and even on a hot day it would have taken a long while to dry. I'm not 100% sure that she didn't do it but, I fully believe that she knew who did.

  9. #209
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Cheesehead Country
    Posts
    2,435
    Happy 151st Birthday Lizzie
    "Deal with the world like you are shopping at a garage sale- Calmly sift through the crap with a smile! Only buy what you need!" ~ Donnie Wahlberg Words of Wisdom

  10. #210
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    5,695

    Question Why NotGuilty!!?

    I am curious, I do not know all the facts of the case but it seems to me if Lizzie was the only one at the house when everyone was dead & if she admitted to it- why was Lizzie found not guilty???
    <a href=http://i42.tinypic.com/etsi8j.jpg target=_blank>http://i42.tinypic.com/etsi8j.jpg</a>

  11. #211
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    1,185
    Quote Originally Posted by pyt View Post
    I am curious, I do not know all the facts of the case but it seems to me if Lizzie was the only one at the house when everyone was dead & if she admitted to it- why was Lizzie found not guilty???
    You should look into it. It is a very interesting case. Lizzie was not the only one at the house, the maid was there as well. There is also speculation that someone came IN the house. Also, you have to take into account the fact that putting a woman on trial for such a crime in that era was unheard of. There were many factors FOR her during the trial the biggest one being she was a woman.

    I firmly believe Lizzie did it, but it is interesting none the less.


  12. #212
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    5,695

    Good Book

    Quote Originally Posted by Dulcinea View Post
    You should look into it. It is a very interesting case. Lizzie was not the only one at the house, the maid was there as well. There is also speculation that someone came IN the house. Also, you have to take into account the fact that putting a woman on trial for such a crime in that era was unheard of. There were many factors FOR her during the trial the biggest one being she was a woman.

    I firmly believe Lizzie did it, but it is interesting none the less.
    Thank you. I will. Are there any good books on Lizzy and the murders??
    <a href=http://i42.tinypic.com/etsi8j.jpg target=_blank>http://i42.tinypic.com/etsi8j.jpg</a>

  13. #213
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    1,185
    Quote Originally Posted by pyt View Post
    Thank you. I will. Are there any good books on Lizzy and the murders??
    Most everything I have read has been on the internet (except for some "Unsolved Crimes" anthologies when I was younger).

    This is a good site with primary documents related to the case:
    http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/project...ordenhome.html

    This site is also very good:
    http://lizzieandrewborden.com/


  14. #214
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Witness protection program
    Posts
    826

    Lizzie borden

    I agree with Sam earlier he talked about in that time no noise from cars,buggies and horses were not as plentiful as cars are now.Windows were left open all through good weather as there were no air conditioners even when I was a child this was true near Fall River.Neighborhood noises carried through the air in still summer days and nights.AND EVERY home had an axe and or hatchet to chop kindling for the stove so the fact that many murders took place with an axe or hatchet in that time was because they were so common in every shop and home period.A ready made weapon in every home as where today we say "axe"????How terrible when in fact it was common then.Interesting thread I grew up in nearbye Providence and was always aware of the Borden murders even as a boy.

  15. #215
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Warwick, RI, USA
    Posts
    1,919
    Happy Birthday, Lizzie, wherever you are!

    I know Andrew Borden was half-reclining on the couch when his body was found, and there was speculation he was napping and was awakened, or was about to lie down when he was axed, so he was caught unaware. Abby Borden was attacked from behind. The attacks may have been very quiet, in other words. I'm clear from the behavior of both Lizzie and the maid afterward that they were covering up things, whether for someone else or for Lizzie.

    This case fascinates me. I imagine the investigation would be very different these days, with DNA testing, and fingerprinting, etc. Also, Lizzie was a white woman of relative means (even though Andrew was notoriously miserly with his money), and they treated her tentatively, in a way a 21st Century woman would not be!

    I'm determined to spend the night at the Borden B & B, and stay in the Morse Room, where Abby died. i don't know when I'll swing that.

  16. #216
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    2,248
    Ahhhhh - I would love to vistit the house and spend the night too, but only if they have AC now... Otherwise, this Texan will visit and hit the closest Motel 6.
    My Posse's On Broadway

  17. #217
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    thatta way ---->
    Posts
    5,979
    Quote Originally Posted by rantat View Post
    Yep, they died nine days apart. Lizzie on 6-1-27 aged 67 and Emma 6-10-27 aged 76.
    I just wanted to add... The sister, who was nine years older, died nine days later. And if you flipped Lizzie's age, you would get her sister's.

    I would love to go there. I broke into a house when I was a kid because of the rumors about what had happened there. In researching its history, it had been used as a hospital during the Civil War, and many people had died there.
    ♥♥♥

  18. #218
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    independence,mo
    Posts
    929
    Quote Originally Posted by pyt View Post
    Thank you. I will. Are there any good books on Lizzy and the murders??
    Forty Whacks by David Kent

    and

    Lizzie Borden: The Legend, The Truth, and The Final Chapter by Arnold R. Brown



    There's another one with a yellow cover that I think is the book wrote by Brown but I might be wrong. It claimed that Emma came home from her trip and helped Lizzie with the murders. She didn't participate she just helped keeping the story up and cleaning up the mess. It was a really interesting theory.....
    [I] "There comes a time in every women's life when the only thing that helps is a glass of champagne."[/FONT]

  19. #219
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    1,427
    Some in Lizzie Borden's Hometown Think Her Legend Is Out of Whack



    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...TTopCarousel_1

    VCNJ~
    Professional Thread-Killer

  20. #220
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    independence,mo
    Posts
    929
    I wanna read this enormous book when it comes out. hopefully it'll be for public sale
    [I] "There comes a time in every women's life when the only thing that helps is a glass of champagne."[/FONT]

  21. #221
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Midland, Texas
    Posts
    2,783
    Last year, around Halloween, there was a special on TV about the Lizzie Borden Case. A detective went to the basement, right underneath where her father was killed. He sprayed Luminol on the wall underneath the floorboards of the old couch. It lit up like a Christmas tree.

  22. #222
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Midland, Texas
    Posts
    2,783
    Forensics Video of actual hatchet and Lizzie's stepmother's scarf.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yIlZUYBXFk

  23. #223
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    2,248
    Quote Originally Posted by michihunt View Post
    Last year, around Halloween, there was a special on TV about the Lizzie Borden Case. A detective went to the basement, right underneath where her father was killed. He sprayed Luminol on the wall underneath the floorboards of the old couch. It lit up like a Christmas tree.

    Dude I would so love to have seen that... You think it would really still be there after all this time?
    My Posse's On Broadway

  24. #224
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    205
    I'm sorry, I also was too lazy to look at all the posts, but I've read several reports from people who spent the night at Lizzie's B&B who saw ghosts or experienced eerie events.

    And there was that episode of Ghost Lab (the one with two chubby brothers) where they spent the night there and got EVPs from her father confirming she killed him because of money. I'm a bit skeptical about these shows, but some episodes creep me out (like the one about Sharon Tate and the other about John Wilkes Booth). The EVPs are too clear to be made up.

    Even being a death hag, there's no way I would spend the night in this place.

  25. #225
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    independence,mo
    Posts
    929
    Quote Originally Posted by Shejay View Post
    Dude I would so love to have seen that... You think it would really still be there after all this time?
    i saw that, it was on ID a couple of days ago. it's possible that dna can still be found at the borden house basement if that's where the killer washed off the blood and disposed of the weapon. on wiki it says that dna, all conditions considering, can last up to thousands of years so it may be possible those investigators really did find something
    [I] "There comes a time in every women's life when the only thing that helps is a glass of champagne."[/FONT]

  26. #226
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    1,567
    I don't see how she could NOT have been the killer. It's amazing how people before the age of DNA and all this technology actually caught killers and criminals. I wonder how many people got away with murder and how many people were wrongly convicted.

  27. #227
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    17
    Forgive if some of this has already been covered but I haven't had the time to go back through all the posts to get up on this thread. I have been fascinated by this case for a long time. I have read several books and researched this a lot. I lived in Rhode Island for many years and have taken the tour of the Bed and Breakfast several times. Really is worth the trip. I haven't stayed there yet but I do intend to one of these days. There are several people who give the tours and each one has a different take on it and different information. The most interesting tour was given by a man who dresses in period clothing and looks very much like Andrew himself. Being the "deathhag" that I am, I had him pose for a picture on the couch in the death pose. He was very nice and agreed to do so for me. Anyway, to mention a few things that may not have been covered here:

    1. Andrew had an illegitimate son. He visited Andrew once and was turned away and told never to return. He was also not quite right in the head by accounts and it was always considered a possibility that he was the murderer.

    2. Bridgette (the maid) disappeared for many years and could not be located. She was found several years later and had a considerable amount of money that was unheard of for someone of her position. It can be assumed that she was possibly paid for her silence.

    3. There is also a story that Lizzie killed her stepmother's cat. Some people tend to believe this story, however I do not. She was quite the animal lover so I can't see her doing such a thing. But a phantom cat is also said to haunt the Borden house. I believe there is a website with the story if you google it.

    4. Is it just me or when you look at the crime scene photos there seems to be a serious lack of blood in the pictures? I would think an axe to the head would have left a considerable amount of blood and spatter everywhere. Or at the very least a large pool of it on the floor around Abby. Anybody notice this or have an explanation?

  28. #228
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    269
    Quote Originally Posted by nytkrew View Post
    I was always "proud" as a kid growing up, the family rumor was that we were related to the step mother she killed.
    We're supposed to be related to Lizzie herself on my mom's side of the family. One of my mom's cousins does a lot of genealogical research and she's come up with family trees that go back centuries.... Anyhow, she's supposed be our fourth, fifth, sixth cousin...? Something like that. It's fairly close. I found this site, http://www.thecolefamily.com/hobby/borden.htm, not too long ago that pretty much confirms what my mother's cousin found. Richard Borden and his clan are our common ancestors. Apparently through him we're also related to Winston Churchill and Marilyn Monroe. And I guess we're also related to Elizabeth Montgomery....

    Do I think she did it? Of course! She's a part of our crazy family, afterall.

  29. #229
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    independence,mo
    Posts
    929
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorenathered View Post
    Forgive if some of this has already been covered but I haven't had the time to go back through all the posts to get up on this thread. I have been fascinated by this case for a long time. I have read several books and researched this a lot. I lived in Rhode Island for many years and have taken the tour of the Bed and Breakfast several times. Really is worth the trip. I haven't stayed there yet but I do intend to one of these days. There are several people who give the tours and each one has a different take on it and different information. The most interesting tour was given by a man who dresses in period clothing and looks very much like Andrew himself. Being the "deathhag" that I am, I had him pose for a picture on the couch in the death pose. He was very nice and agreed to do so for me. Anyway, to mention a few things that may not have been covered here:

    1. Andrew had an illegitimate son. He visited Andrew once and was turned away and told never to return. He was also not quite right in the head by accounts and it was always considered a possibility that he was the murderer.

    2. Bridgette (the maid) disappeared for many years and could not be located. She was found several years later and had a considerable amount of money that was unheard of for someone of her position. It can be assumed that she was possibly paid for her silence.

    3. There is also a story that Lizzie killed her stepmother's cat. Some people tend to believe this story, however I do not. She was quite the animal lover so I can't see her doing such a thing. But a phantom cat is also said to haunt the Borden house. I believe there is a website with the story if you google it.

    4. Is it just me or when you look at the crime scene photos there seems to be a serious lack of blood in the pictures? I would think an axe to the head would have left a considerable amount of blood and spatter everywhere. Or at the very least a large pool of it on the floor around Abby. Anybody notice this or have an explanation?

    I remember seeing a segment on A&E about the "son" theroy. to me it seems very shaky especially since he's hardly ever mentioned the guy is mostly called "the vagrant"

    Bridgette at the time I believe was talking to a maid next door when Mr. borden was discovered by lizzie. I wouldn't be surprised if she had some knowledge to the killing or lizzie's intention.

    I'm with you I don't think lizzie would ever hurt an animal

    as for the blood, those post mortem pics were taken several hours after the bodies were found so most of it was congealed and probably had soaked and dried into the couch and rug (mr.borden) and the carpet in the guest room (mrs.borden). it might be possible to that some of the blood was cleaned up by police or by the killer before the photos were taken.

    around 11 am mr.borden was found.this was some thirty minutes after he got home. from the position of the body I'd say most of the blood seeped into his clothes or onto the couch and coat under his head. it appears that there is some pooled blood and splatter under the couch on the left side.
    Abbey was found shortly after the discovery of her husband but was more likely killed hours earlier.

    I could never shake the idea of Lizzie being the culprit. I think either Emma or brigette or both of them knew of Lizzie's plan and were kept away from the house so she could carry it out. she had to of had some kind of help or let someone in on it. there's too many paths that point to lizzie to ignore..
    [I] "There comes a time in every women's life when the only thing that helps is a glass of champagne."[/FONT]

  30. #230
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    toronto, canada ( Etobicoke)
    Posts
    4,250
    they found some journals from a lawyer of the Borden family. Will this solve the mystery ???

    http://www.radaronline.com/exclusive...overy-journals

  31. #231
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Petaluma Ca
    Posts
    4,847
    Quote Originally Posted by cash View Post
    they found some journals from a lawyer of the Borden family. Will this solve the mystery ???

    http://www.radaronline.com/exclusive...overy-journals
    Very cool, I can't wait to see what they have to say!

  32. #232
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    independence,mo
    Posts
    929
    even if there's new info I doubt it will say for sure who the killer was. If anything it might give more information about the trial but I don't think it'll solve anything. hopefully I'm wrong though!
    [I] "There comes a time in every women's life when the only thing that helps is a glass of champagne."[/FONT]

  33. #233
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,789
    Quote Originally Posted by Heavenly Tiger View Post
    Alfred Hitchcock presents his take on Lizzie - the older sister http://www.hulu.com/watch/275/alfred...e-older-sister
    Still think Lizzie's sister had alot to do with the
    Murder's.
    Carolyn(1958-2009) always in my heart.

  34. #234
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    2,490
    Quote Originally Posted by doyleloyal View Post
    I remember seeing a segment on A&E about the "son" theroy. to me it seems very shaky especially since he's hardly ever mentioned the guy is mostly called "the vagrant"

    Bridgette at the time I believe was talking to a maid next door when Mr. borden was discovered by lizzie. I wouldn't be surprised if she had some knowledge to the killing or lizzie's intention.

    I'm with you I don't think lizzie would ever hurt an animal

    as for the blood, those post mortem pics were taken several hours after the bodies were found so most of it was congealed and probably had soaked and dried into the couch and rug (mr.borden) and the carpet in the guest room (mrs.borden). it might be possible to that some of the blood was cleaned up by police or by the killer before the photos were taken.

    around 11 am mr.borden was found.this was some thirty minutes after he got home. from the position of the body I'd say most of the blood seeped into his clothes or onto the couch and coat under his head. it appears that there is some pooled blood and splatter under the couch on the left side.
    Abbey was found shortly after the discovery of her husband but was more likely killed hours earlier.

    I could never shake the idea of Lizzie being the culprit. I think either Emma or brigette or both of them knew of Lizzie's plan and were kept away from the house so she could carry it out. she had to of had some kind of help or let someone in on it. there's too many paths that point to lizzie to ignore..
    I've been to the Fall River Historical Society where they have quite a few items on display from the trial and the case. I've seen the bed spread in the room where Abby was found and there was blood spatter on it. I suspect the quality of the photos could be why so much blood spatter was not visible. Just guessing.

    On a side note, I was able to sit on the same stool that Lizzy sat on in jail. There was this lady working there when I went (she must have been about 300 years old then) and she was so sweet and she insisted I sit on the stool. How could I let that sweet old lady down? LOL.

    If anyone finds themselves in MA and are interested in the case, go to the Historical Society in Fall River. It's really interesting.
    Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils.

  35. #235
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    1,185
    Wasn't the sister out of town at the time and had been for days? I always felt Lizzie acted alone, but that the maid, Bridget, knew more than she ever said and possibly lied for Lizzie on the stand. Either way, I'm not sure with Lizzie being on trial in the era she was that she would have ever have been convicted (simply because she was a woman and pretty well respected in the community). I always felt her charity afterwards was kind of her own personal pennance. The animosity in the family may not have been as great as it was portrayed, but I don't doubt there were issues. It is pretty well documented that Lizzie (and possibly her sister) referred to Abby (the stepmother) as Mrs. Borden, but had not always done so. Very telling to someone who IS a stepmother and knows how that animosity can play out over the smallest things.

    As for the diaries: I would be interested to read them, but they are from her defense lawyer, so of COURSE they are going to be slanted in her favor.
    Last edited by Dulcinea; 03-15-2012 at 08:36 AM.


  36. #236
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    2,498
    "Maplecroft", the mansion Lizzie had built with her "blood money", and her residence until her death, is for sale for $650K. At that price (twice that of similar houses in the area due to the notoriety) I guess nobody's had to turn it into a multi-family dwelling yet.
    Beware though, this article contains some inaccuracies and shows far more familiar pix of the actual murder house, than Lizzie's later lavish digs.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ica-since.html

  37. #237
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Westcoast Canada aka LaLaLand
    Posts
    2,820
    I have always wondered why there is still such fascination with this case. I find it immensely interesting but even I don't know why I do.

  38. #238
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    476
    Quote Originally Posted by lulubaines View Post
    She did it. I would do murder too, if I had cold mutton stew for breakfast.
    LMAO !!! I thought the same thing. Just the thought of it makes me want to wretch. I believe it was on the verge of being spoiled and didn't it have flies hovering over it too? Not to mention the stepmother was a real witch and I think Lizzie knew she was a gold digger.

  39. #239
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    2,490
    Quote Originally Posted by nightdiva View Post
    LMAO !!! I thought the same thing. Just the thought of it makes me want to wretch. I believe it was on the verge of being spoiled and didn't it have flies hovering over it too? Not to mention the stepmother was a real witch and I think Lizzie knew she was a gold digger.
    In the movie with Elizabeth Montgomery there were also little, baby fly larvea was in the stew too.
    Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils.

  40. #240
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    2,490
    Quote Originally Posted by pwem View Post
    I have always wondered why there is still such fascination with this case. I find it immensely interesting but even I don't know why I do.
    I think that my interest (although not obssesive) interest in the case is because I lived in New Bedford (near Fall River) and also the TV movie used air like every year on a local channel. I couldn't really get away from it.
    Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils.

  41. #241
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    greater Boston area
    Posts
    324
    Quote Originally Posted by helo99 View Post
    I'm sorry, I also was too lazy to look at all the posts, but I've read several reports from people who spent the night at Lizzie's B&B who saw ghosts or experienced eerie events.

    And there was that episode of Ghost Lab (the one with two chubby brothers) where they spent the night there and got EVPs from her father confirming she killed him because of money. I'm a bit skeptical about these shows, but some episodes creep me out (like the one about Sharon Tate and the other about John Wilkes Booth). The EVPs are too clear to be made up.

    Even being a death hag, there's no way I would spend the night in this place.
    I caught an episode of some similar type of show once where they were recording EVPs at the Borden murder house, and IIRC had a psychic/medium asking the spirit who responded (apparently Andrew Borden) some rather pointed questioned. While the voiceover made a big fuss about the subject being inappropriate for broadcast, etc., it was very obvious that she was asking Andrew if he'd ever molested Lizzie, and the spirit started snarling back that she was a "whore."

    This isn't necessarily just a modern reading of the case, either--there was gossip at the time that father and daughter were perhaps a bit too close; while most girls her age gave their sweethearts their high school rings, or kept them for themselves, Lizzie gave hers to Andrew, and he was wearing it the day he died--in fact, he was buried wearing it. He tended to spoil her (inasmuch as he ever spoiled anyone), and again, while it could have been perfectly innocent, it might not have been...Also, Lizzie was a known kleptomaniac, and there's supposedly a very strong correlation between that and sexual abuse of some kind. Obviously, we have no way of ever knowing definitively what, if anything, went on between father and daughter, and even if Lizzie was an abuse survivor, that kind of thing was never really spoken of publicly until within the past 30 years or so. If the incest/abuse theories are true, the idea of Lizzie taking a hatchet to the father who betrayed her, first by assaulting her and then by apparently trying to cheat her out of her inheritance (which seems to be how both sisters felt about the property going to Emma's family), and to the stepmother who let it all happen, is quite plausible.

    (My personal take on it is that the relationship does seem to border on the emotionally incestuous; as for anything more, I wouldn't say for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out it had happened.)

  42. #242
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    2,498
    There were also rumors about John Vinnicum Morse, the uncle who was visiting at the time (and also conveniently absent during the murders.) He was a brother of the Borden sisters' late mother, and some speculated that he and Lizzie (27 years his junior) were involved sexually as well as with the murders. However, he was seen in town at the times they would have been going on.

    So there was a theme of incest going on all over the place--- William, the "illegitimate son", was legally a Borden because his mother, Phebe, was married to Andrew's cousin Charles (According to a family tree on Genealogy.com, he had no brothers as the following article asserts.) Andrew raised himself from the poorer side of his ancient family, but there were still relatives who could have given the Jukes and Kallikaks a run for the money.

    William was known to be mentally ill for years, in and out of institutions, and with a sickly wife with issues of her own. There is a timeline of records from his many confinements.

    http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Archiv...lliamexist.htm

    He allegedly committed a very strange suicide in 1901, hanging himself after swallowing poison.


    http://historygoddess.com/biography....Borden&page=10


    Interestingly, John V. Morse had a slight connection to the Villisca murders. He had moved to that part of Iowa in his youth, and after a lifetime of visiting his in-laws in Massachussetts and even working with Andrew Borden for a while, he returned to Hastings, Iowa for the rest of his life. When the Villisca axe murders occurred, someone had the bright idea to investigate the former suspect in the Fall River crimes, though Morse was in his late 70s by then! Fortunately, he was cleared when they found his grave--- he had already died in March 1912.

    http://docublogger.typepad.com/villi...ca-murder.html
    Last edited by Linnie; 10-21-2012 at 08:40 PM.

  43. #243
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Northwest Ohio
    Posts
    3,251
    Every timethisthread gets bumped I cringe for my own hipocracy as a fair to a fault taurus I find too much doubt in this case to brand Lizzie a murderer with the same stubborn taurian conviction I feel for OJ
    Last edited by tarsier; 05-02-2012 at 06:18 AM.

  44. #244
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Cheesehead Country
    Posts
    2,435
    Happy Birthday Lizzie! She woulda been 152 today
    "Deal with the world like you are shopping at a garage sale- Calmly sift through the crap with a smile! Only buy what you need!" ~ Donnie Wahlberg Words of Wisdom

  45. #245
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    5,695
    Since Halloween is approaching, Travel Channel just did a 'Americas most terrifying' places kind of a show. Of course, this was #1. I have been somewhat fascinated by this story because all we have ever known since 1898 is that Lizzy Borden was home and everyone thinks she did it without any kind of evidence to back it up. I would love to have some CSI re-open this case and utilize the technology we have today to prove otherwise. Anyway, what I'm interested in is there was a psychic at the house & asked Mrs. Borden if Lizzy was the one who killed her & according to the psychic, it was not. It was a man named Joe.

    What I want to know is: are there any books on this? What happened to Lizzy Borden after the acquital? There was even an Alfred Hitchcock episode kind of based on her and the thereafter of the trial. What happened to the housemaid? Was she killed too???

  46. #246
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    The Holy Land (Texas)
    Posts
    5,096
    After the trial, Lizzie and Emma moved into a large and modern house in Fall River. More about her and Emma's remaining years via Wiki:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizzie_...ubsequent_life

  47. #247
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Where East meets West
    Posts
    1,807
    I would totally want to visit the house the murders took place in. I've a feeling with all the modern technology we have at our disposal, we'll eventually learn of her guilt or innocence...
    By my troth, I care not; a man can die but once; we owe God a death.... He that dies this year is quit for the next.
    --William Shakespeare!

  48. #248
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    2
    A friend and I stayed at Lizzie's for two nights in October 2010, in the room where her stepmother was murdered. It wasn't scary at all......just a lot of fun! The first night we had the shared-bathroom all to ourselves, but had to share it with another couple the second night. Your ovenight stay includes a tour of the house, from top to bottom. Several of our pictures included orbs which we can't explain, and a third, unaccompanied tour of the basement by me and a couple other guests included strange, unexplained noises on a tape recorder I had set up. Also, the first night, when we did not have to share the bathroom, I heard several noises during the night, sort of like metal hitting metal, but I didn't hear them the second night. At the time of the murder, that bathroom was a storage room. The only bathroom they had in the house then was in the basement. I slept on the side of the bed opposite from where Abby's body was found, meaning that if I slept on my left side, I could see the inch-wide crack of light under the door. And I must admit I was a little nervous about what I might see under that crack. I pretty much kept my eyes shut while lying on that side.

    The full day we had between the two nights we spent touring the city, seeing all the "Lizzie sights." We went to the Fall River Historical Society, which I would totally recommend. We also saw the family gravesight and Maplecroft. When she was older and living alone at Maplecroft, the people in the neighborhood had nothing but good things to say about her. The man who now lives in the house does not like tourists hanging around and has been known to chase people away from the front of his house. I took pictures from across the street and had no trouble.

    The staff at Lizzie's was wonderful and our stay was everything I had hoped it would be. The gift shop, which is also where you check-in, is loaded with all kinds of great souvenirs, so bring plenty of money to buy stuff or you will regret it. The gift shop is housed in the replica of the old barn where Lizzie said she was eating pears in the loft while her parents were being murdered. The original barn was torn down because it was no longer safe. They also moved it over to one side of the house to make room for a parking lot behind the house.

    Of those of us in the house those two nights, some believed the uncle murdered Andrew and Abby, some thought the maid did it, some felt a business aquaintance of Andrew's was responsible, and others were convinced a stranger broke into the house to commit the crimes. Personally, I have always believed Lizzie killed her parents, and nothing I experienced in that house those two nights convinced me otherwise.

  49. #249
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    2,498
    I went there this past Memorial Day weekend. The house and "barn" are now painted a dark grayish green. The furniture and most of the decorations in the houses are NOT the originals, but heroic efforts were made to match what appeared in the crime scene photos at the time. Lizzie had the old furniture burned when she moved to Maplecroft.
    A friend's young daughter claimed to see a ghost cat while there. If anyone killed a cat back in 1892, it had to be Abby the stepmother, which would have been a straw to make her stepdaughter break out the hatchet, as Lizzie's fondness for animals was well-known even then.
    One of the two human beneficiaries of Lizzie's will was the wife of FDR's friend/advisor Louis Howe. Grace Hartley Howe was a second cousin of Lizzie's, and the Howes are buried in the same cemetery (though Louis apparently spent half his married life with the Roosevelts and died in Washington, D.C.)
    This is a fun site with lots of Lizzie stories, legends, and trivia.
    http://phayemuss.wordpress.com/

  50. #250
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    5,695
    Quote Originally Posted by harrison14 View Post
    A friend and I stayed at Lizzie's for two nights in October 2010, in the room where her stepmother was murdered. It wasn't scary at all......just a lot of fun! The first night we had the shared-bathroom all to ourselves, but had to share it with another couple the second night. Your ovenight stay includes a tour of the house, from top to bottom. Several of our pictures included orbs which we can't explain, and a third, unaccompanied tour of the basement by me and a couple other guests included strange, unexplained noises on a tape recorder I had set up. Also, the first night, when we did not have to share the bathroom, I heard several noises during the night, sort of like metal hitting metal, but I didn't hear them the second night. At the time of the murder, that bathroom was a storage room. The only bathroom they had in the house then was in the basement. I slept on the side of the bed opposite from where Abby's body was found, meaning that if I slept on my left side, I could see the inch-wide crack of light under the door. And I must admit I was a little nervous about what I might see under that crack. I pretty much kept my eyes shut while lying on that side.

    The full day we had between the two nights we spent touring the city, seeing all the "Lizzie sights." We went to the Fall River Historical Society, which I would totally recommend. We also saw the family gravesight and Maplecroft. When she was older and living alone at Maplecroft, the people in the neighborhood had nothing but good things to say about her. The man who now lives in the house does not like tourists hanging around and has been known to chase people away from the front of his house. I took pictures from across the street and had no trouble.

    The staff at Lizzie's was wonderful and our stay was everything I had hoped it would be. The gift shop, which is also where you check-in, is loaded with all kinds of great souvenirs, so bring plenty of money to buy stuff or you will regret it. The gift shop is housed in the replica of the old barn where Lizzie said she was eating pears in the loft while her parents were being murdered. The original barn was torn down because it was no longer safe. They also moved it over to one side of the house to make room for a parking lot behind the house.

    Of those of us in the house those two nights, some believed the uncle murdered Andrew and Abby, some thought the maid did it, some felt a business aquaintance of Andrew's was responsible, and others were convinced a stranger broke into the house to commit the crimes. Personally, I have always believed Lizzie killed her parents, and nothing I experienced in that house those two nights convinced me otherwise.

    Sounds like fun! So you didn't eperience any kind of ghosts/paranormal? Was it expensive??? Would you do it again?"???

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •