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Thread: Lizzie Borden gave her mother 40 whacks?

  1. #101
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    just watched all of them, thanks for the post

  2. #102
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    i just watched them all too, plus some videos on further investigations and theories into the borden case, thanks again!
    pull the string!

  3. #103
    Thanks for the links :-)
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  4. #104
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    Cool! TY for the post! Gotta watch these!!
    Watch what you say or do today....tomorrow you might wake up dead!!

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    Thanks for the links! Lizzie always has fascinated me!

  6. #106
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    Elizabeth Montgomery is AMAZING in this.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack-O-Lantern View Post
    Great movie. Best thing Elizabeth Montgomery ever did imo...

    I LOVE your pic of Bob Wilkins. Last I heard, he was suffering from Alzhiemers. They were having some sort of Fundraiser. Have you heard anything about that ?

  8. #108
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    Elizabeth

    I love Elizabeth Montgomery and am intensely interested in Lizzie Borden, so it is totally awesome!!! Thanks!!!

  9. #109
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    I thought the movie gave a very good theory on how Lizzie may have committed the murders.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by dovescry1999 View Post
    I LOVE your pic of Bob Wilkins. Last I heard, he was suffering from Alzhiemers. They were having some sort of Fundraiser. Have you heard anything about that ?
    Hey doves! You must be from the bay area! Was there anything better than watching Wilkins' Creature Features on Sat. nights? I'm so happy to have those memories...


    Yes Bob is suffering from advanced Alzheimers at this point, and his wife Sally has started a fund for giving to help her care for him now. Here's the link to that site:

    http://www.bobwilkins.net/message_sally.html

    There have been a couple of fundraisers too, and I think there's another one coming up in, I believe, September. I didn't know about this fund and I will definitely be sending something his way.

    By the way, remember this?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MrQY...eature=related



  11. #111
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    omigod..... you are so awesome for putting up the whole thing....... I've watched 4 twilight zone's just today..... will be gone.....watching Lizzie

  12. #112
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    Thanks for posting this!. I can't wait to watch it tomorrow night...when I have more time. I remember when it came on TBS many years ago...I was turned on by Elizabeth Montgomery in that role...

  13. #113
    I sat and watched the whole thing. It seemed to me that there was a lot of information left out. I need to do some digging...

  14. #114
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    We got to read the actual court transcripts in school. It was very interesting.

    Also interesting was the recent investigation of the house using luminol and lumilights. They saw blood seeping down inbetween the floor boards and between rocks.

  15. #115
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    Yeah she was a crazy ax whacker all right

  16. #116
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    If I was mad enough and unstable I probably could kill someone with a hatchet...... I think she did it

  17. #117
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    I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn she did it pretty much the way it was depicted in the Elizabeth Montgomery movie. This is one of a long list of questions I intend to ask God when I die.

    ETA: Woah! I've never seen the autopsy photos before! Cool!
    Just drink lots of Kool-Aid, and take one of these blue pills three times a day.

  18. #118
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    She most definitely did it and got away with it. She was a lady who taught Sunday school after all.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    She most definitely did it and got away with it. She was a lady who taught Sunday school after all.
    Hee! I've taught Sunday school, too. Those parents had no idea their children were being taught by a certified death hag. Although I gotta say, ten-year-old kids are pretty fascinated by gore, too.
    Just drink lots of Kool-Aid, and take one of these blue pills three times a day.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Rabbit View Post
    If I was mad enough and unstable I probably could kill someone with a hatchet...... I think she did it
    Remain Calm-LOL

  21. #121
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    I truly believe she was responsible for their deaths.

  22. #122
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    something tells me there had been sexual abuse by the father to either just lizzie or both daughters. lizzie, undoubtedly traumatised by it, snapped in her later years, and in a moment of psychosis did the deeds. i think the sister knew also. the father was a former undertaker and possible necrophile--real crazy making stuff to a small child who may have seen it all. lizzie may have even heard 'the voices' as many schizophrenics do, used as a coping mechanism, for early childhood sexual abuse. there was definitely mental illness in play here.
    pull the string!

  23. #123
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    I've read a lot about Lizzie in my day's. I'm pretty convinced that she did it but Gil Grissom wasn't exactly around in those days. There are a lot of unsolved mysteries throughout history and secrets have been taken to the grave in a lot of cases. I agree with the theory of sexual abuse and I also think that it was a case of pissed of daughter wanting money and dad wouldn't give it up. Who likes a stepmother. I've got one and I try to keep everything sharp and unloaded when she is around. An axe is messy. Poison would be my weapon of choice...LOL

  24. #124
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    I don't think so.. I think there was evidence of a young man, who may have been an illegitimate child...who was at the house just before the murders. I think he did it...
    now I have to go and refresh my memory!

  25. #125
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    I know this is a sick Death Hag question...but I wonder if any more "axe murder" autopsy photos exist...especially anything from the late 1800's or early 1900's.

  26. #126
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    Oh yeah - she totally did it.


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  27. #127
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    i just don't know, but its fascinating that if she did, she got away with murder!
    pull the string!

  28. #128
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    I've driven by the house MANY times, so many where I didn't even notice it. ( I grew up in Massachusetts). I believe she did it. you can stay there in the house. It's a bed and breakfast!

  29. #129
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    I have always been fascinated by the Lizzy Borden story. (there is/was also a rock band named after her!)
    I like to think she did it! Gruesome!

  30. #130
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    I'm pretty sure she did it. Think of the day and age. They didn't want to put a woman behind bars. The thing with her sister was weird too. Apparently they moved after the death and lived together for years, both spinsters. Then ... suddenly... sister moved out and they never spoke or saw each other again for 20 years. What happened. Lizzie confess? Or they got in an argument? Sister says "did you do it? Did you? Huh?" And Lizzie shrieks "YES, alright? I did it! So what?" Sister moves out and they're done.
    I cried for shoes .... til I met a man with no feet.


  31. #131
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    So many different angles to this case.
    Im also on the fence about whether she did it or not. Will have to do some more reading on this one I think

  32. #132
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    I remember reading all I could on this online some time back and I do believe also that she was guilty ... I would love to stay at the B & B that is the house of the Murder., if I ever get that way, it's expensive but what the heck!! Death Hags have to do what they have to do.......
    There's more to the truth than just the facts. ~Author Unknown

  33. #133
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    I agree that Liz did it...a model of calculated and methodical murder, and good acting afterward. Whether of not sis was an accomplice at the time I can't decide.

    If there was sexual abuse by the father, that could have predisposed the Borden sisters to live together for some 20 years in an incestuous lesbian setting. However the younger sister taking a powder after 20 years does kinda throw a monkey wrench in my 20 sisterly love theory.
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  34. #134
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    I just dont know...but why would the maid do it? I think ol Lizzy might have...
    hurt an animal and I will kill you

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    Something that could strengthen the sexual abuse theory is the fact that Lizzie was a kleptomaniac/shoplifter--I believe it's been suggested that there's a strong correlation between abuse and kleptomania. I've done some reading on the case over the years, and the father/daughter relationship was definitely a strange one--among other things, Lizzie gave her father her high school class ring (most girls gave theirs to their sweethearts), and he wore it until the day he died and was buried with it. They were extremely close for most of her life, in many ways more so than he was with his wife (he married Abby to have a housekeeper and mother to his daughters; it's been suggested that it may have been a sexless marriage), and he spoiled her more than he did anyone else in the family--my gut feeling is that, while there may or may not have been physically incestuous, there's definitely a certain amount of emotional incest going on. In that light, it's not hard to see a scenario where Andrew's unusual generosity to his wife's family could be taken as a real betrayal by both daughters (which does indeed seem to be the case), with Lizzie in particular seeing it as Abby "stealing" her father's money/love from her--the former would be bad enough given the lack of options for older spinsters at that time, but the emotional betrayal would cut even deeper.

    An interesting book that's probably out of print is Victoria Lincoln's A Private Disgrace--Lincoln was a native of Fall River and was a child at the time Lizzie was an elderly lady, and she has a very interesting perspective on both the family relationships and the manners and attitudes of that particular time and place. Part of her theory involves Lizzie being prone to epileptic seizures while menstruating, and she was supposed either still on the rag or just finishing up at the time of the murders (I've read other accounts saying this wasn't the case, so it's up for debate), and wasn't exactly mentally stable to begin with; add a good dollop of boiling resentment of Abby for "stealing" her inheritance (and, by inference, her father's love), horribly hot weather for several days beforehand, and, well...you get the picture. According to Lincoln, Abby was the real target, and Lizzie had hoped to already be out and about downtown by the time Andrew came home; unfortunately, he came home early, before she had the chance to go out and establish an alibi. She couldn't bear the idea that, even if he covered for her, he would know she'd killed Abby and therefore might love her less, and so killed him to keep him from finding out. (Andrew's murder does seem to be more of a slapdash affair in some ways than Abby's in terms of the damage done, and I could see a totally distraught Lizzie flailing away blindly with the hatchet.) Of course, we don't know if this was the case, and plenty of people disagree rather strongly w/Lincoln's theories, but again, emotionally the idea that the murders were the result of love gone bad more than greed rings true to me.

    (I've also done the house tour--for my birthday, no less--and between the 4-day-old boiled mutton & soup, and the way the house is laid out--there are no hallways, and every room leads into another one--I can see how someone could totally go postal even if they weren't already headed that way. Just MHO...)

  36. #136
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    interesting post, Robin! Thanks!!

  37. #137
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    I think she did it and believe me I can understand....I have been "menstruating" and wanted to kill many people with a hatchet!
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  38. #138
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    OJ did it.

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by KristinEileen View Post
    For a long time I was absolutely convinced that the maid did it. I always thought that Lizzie, even though not entirely happy with her step mother loved her father way to much to kill him.
    I agree with you on that one thats how ive always thought. But one thing that stands out about the killings was how personal the murders were. There was intent to maim and disfigure there which ( I may be wrong ) suggests to me extreme anger and hatred. Theres an old saying back in the hills of Tennessee no one can love you or kill you like a loved one can.

    But something got Ms.Borden off so wouldn't that suggest that there was resonable doubt that she did it? But then look at OJ its an answer we will never get unfortunately. But then you have those who where thought guilty but proven innocent like the new findings on the Jon Benet Ramsey case. New evidence that came out that at least 1 if not both of the Ramseys are innocent.

    Theres so many twists to Lizzy Borden and your alls guess is as good as mine but I would love to have that riddle answered someday. Just like I would love to see OJ get hauled off to prison and get it up the ass by some big ass brute of a man named Frida

  40. #140
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    The fact that Lizzie was acquitted certainly suggests that the jury believed she was not guilty beyond all shadow of doubt but, as some one mentioned earlier in this thread, there was back then a great reluctance to convict an average woman of a gruesome double murder. Couple that general attitude with Lizzie's demeanor in the courtroom (didn't she faint when her father's skull was brought out for evidence?) and one can understand why Liz was found not guilty.

    Another aspect is that if there was some form of incestuous relationship between Andrew Borden and his daughters, that probably been discovered at some point before or during the trial, either by the police or by the prosecution, or was known by a few influential city buisinessmen. If that was the case, one can easily imagine that such a relationship between a local banker and his daughters would have been covered up by local influentials to protect the reputation of the town.

    Business always comes first, you know.
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  41. #141
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    i dont think she did it
    i think her brother/illigitimate child thingy did

  42. #142
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    I always thought her sister Emma killed them and Lizzie
    was covering up for her.

  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by hell0kitty View Post
    something tells me there had been sexual abuse by the father to either just lizzie or both daughters. lizzie, undoubtedly traumatised by it, snapped in her later years, and in a moment of psychosis did the deeds. i think the sister knew also. the father was a former undertaker and possible necrophile--real crazy making stuff to a small child who may have seen it all. lizzie may have even heard 'the voices' as many schizophrenics do, used as a coping mechanism, for early childhood sexual abuse. there was definitely mental illness in play here.
    I recently saw a program on the history channel where they did a "psychological" autopsy of the murderer...the determination of the psychologists and criminologists were that the murderer's methodology revealed extreme rage (as demonstrated by the # of axe-blows...overkill), and the fact that the victims' faces were so destroyed was supposed to show that the killer had a close relationship with the dead...Lizzie not only HATED her step-mother, she had an 'unusual' relationship with her father...she even gave him her high school ring! Andrew Borden's fanatical obsession with 'keeping family secrets' is supposed to be indicative of possible abuse going on within the home. The show only confirmed what I've always thought...LIZZIE DID IT!

  44. #144
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    I saw something one time that said her sister actually burned her dress for her. I don't remember all the details, but she had visited her in jail. I can't believe that she stayed in the same town after all that; even if I was innocent, I wouldn't be able to face the people in town thinking I did something that horrible.

  45. #145
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    Yeah, there's something about having bloody clothes burned that screams GUILTY...just like fleeing the LAPD in a white suburban in a desperate run for the border!

  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by hell0kitty View Post
    something tells me there had been sexual abuse by the father to either just lizzie or both daughters. lizzie, undoubtedly traumatised by it, snapped in her later years, and in a moment of psychosis did the deeds. i think the sister knew also. the father was a former undertaker and possible necrophile--real crazy making stuff to a small child who may have seen it all. lizzie may have even heard 'the voices' as many schizophrenics do, used as a coping mechanism, for early childhood sexual abuse. there was definitely mental illness in play here.
    I'd say you hit it on the head there. Well done, kitty.
    .

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  47. #147
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    I put this in the Random Pictures thread, but I thought everyone reading here would find this funny. OT- the character of Elsie Borden from the milk cans is married to Elmer the bull from the glue bottles!


  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bidmor View Post
    I agree that Liz did it...a model of calculated and methodical murder, and good acting afterward. Whether of not sis was an accomplice at the time I can't decide.

    If there was sexual abuse by the father, that could have predisposed the Borden sisters to live together for some 20 years in an incestuous lesbian setting. However the younger sister taking a powder after 20 years does kinda throw a monkey wrench in my 20 sisterly love theory.

    Ah but sister moved out after Lizzie started an affair with an actress.

  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donnagg123 View Post
    What do you think....did she or didn't she?

    Here is a link to autopsy photos of the bordens **Graphic**

    http://thechanceryhouse.com/residentghosts_autopsy.htm

    Here is a link to autopsy report

    http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/proj...autopsies.html
    cool photos. I've never seen those. Thanks for posting!

  50. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobinTMP View Post
    Something that could strengthen the sexual abuse theory is the fact that Lizzie was a kleptomaniac/shoplifter--I believe it's been suggested that there's a strong correlation between abuse and kleptomania. I've done some reading on the case over the years, and the father/daughter relationship was definitely a strange one--among other things, Lizzie gave her father her high school class ring (most girls gave theirs to their sweethearts), and he wore it until the day he died and was buried with it. They were extremely close for most of her life, in many ways more so than he was with his wife (he married Abby to have a housekeeper and mother to his daughters; it's been suggested that it may have been a sexless marriage), and he spoiled her more than he did anyone else in the family--my gut feeling is that, while there may or may not have been physically incestuous, there's definitely a certain amount of emotional incest going on. In that light, it's not hard to see a scenario where Andrew's unusual generosity to his wife's family could be taken as a real betrayal by both daughters (which does indeed seem to be the case), with Lizzie in particular seeing it as Abby "stealing" her father's money/love from her--the former would be bad enough given the lack of options for older spinsters at that time, but the emotional betrayal would cut even deeper.

    An interesting book that's probably out of print is Victoria Lincoln's A Private Disgrace--Lincoln was a native of Fall River and was a child at the time Lizzie was an elderly lady, and she has a very interesting perspective on both the family relationships and the manners and attitudes of that particular time and place. Part of her theory involves Lizzie being prone to epileptic seizures while menstruating, and she was supposed either still on the rag or just finishing up at the time of the murders (I've read other accounts saying this wasn't the case, so it's up for debate), and wasn't exactly mentally stable to begin with; add a good dollop of boiling resentment of Abby for "stealing" her inheritance (and, by inference, her father's love), horribly hot weather for several days beforehand, and, well...you get the picture. According to Lincoln, Abby was the real target, and Lizzie had hoped to already be out and about downtown by the time Andrew came home; unfortunately, he came home early, before she had the chance to go out and establish an alibi. She couldn't bear the idea that, even if he covered for her, he would know she'd killed Abby and therefore might love her less, and so killed him to keep him from finding out. (Andrew's murder does seem to be more of a slapdash affair in some ways than Abby's in terms of the damage done, and I could see a totally distraught Lizzie flailing away blindly with the hatchet.) Of course, we don't know if this was the case, and plenty of people disagree rather strongly w/Lincoln's theories, but again, emotionally the idea that the murders were the result of love gone bad more than greed rings true to me.

    (I've also done the house tour--for my birthday, no less--and between the 4-day-old boiled mutton & soup, and the way the house is laid out--there are no hallways, and every room leads into another one--I can see how someone could totally go postal even if they weren't already headed that way. Just MHO...)
    Great post I too think there was something "sexual" about her relationship with her father. They seemed rather intimate for a father/daughter. I'm on the fence of whether she did it or not but if she did, she must of had help (like from the maid). If she did it she got cleaned up rather quickly so it makes sense to me that she would have had help.
    I love the Elizabeth Montgomery movie about Lizzie Borden. I thought Elizabeth did a great job portraying her.

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