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Thread: Lizzie Borden gave her mother 40 whacks?

  1. #51
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    when ghosthunters went there and did there thing.No ghosts came out to play what a shame. I wanted to see something.its scary that they have all those pics of her up everywhere. Its creepy just watching it on tv. I dont know if id get much sleep there.But i would love to spend the night in that old house.

  2. #52

    Lizzy Borden..did she or didn't she?

    What do you think....did she or didn't she?

    Here is a link to autopsy photos of the bordens **Graphic**

    http://thechanceryhouse.com/residentghosts_autopsy.htm

    Here is a link to autopsy report

    http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/proj...autopsies.html

  3. #53
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    Ok, I am not up to speed on this, care to enlighten all of us please?
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  4. #54
    sorry I assumed everyone knew lizzy borden. She was accused of murdering her step mother and father but got off in the trial but everyone speculated she did it. There is a childhood rhyme (which someone already semi-posted) that made me think of her:
    "Lizzy Borden with an axe,
    gave her father 40 whacks
    when she saw what she had done
    gave her mother 41"...or something like that.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizzy_Borden

    The Murders

    On the morning of August 4, 1892, Lizzie Borden's father, Andrew Jackson Borden, and her stepmother, Abby Borden, were murdered in the family home. The only other people present at the residence at the time were Lizzie and the family maid, Bridget Sullivan. Lizzie's uncle, John V. Morse, brother of Andrew Borden's first wife, was visiting at the time, but was away from the house during the time of the murders.[1] Lizzie's older sister Emma was also away from home.[1]
    That day, Andrew had gone into town to do his usual rounds at the bank and post office. He returned home at about 10:45. About a half-hour later, Lizzie found his body. According to Bridget's testimony, she was lying down in her room on the third floor of the house shortly after 11:00 am when Lizzie called up the stairs to her, saying someone had killed her father, whose body was found slumped on a couch in the downstairs sitting room. Andrew's face was to the right hand side, apparently at ease as if he were asleep.[2]
    Shortly thereafter, while Lizzie was being tended by neighbors and the family doctor, Bridget discovered the body of Mrs. Borden upstairs, in the guest bedroom. Mr. and Mrs. Borden had both been killed by blows from a hatchet, which in the case of Mr. Borden, not only crushed his skull but cleanly split his left eyeball.[3]
    Last edited by Donnagg123; 01-22-2008 at 08:18 AM.

  5. #55
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    A little verse we learned as kids "Lizzy Borden took an axe and gave her mother 40 whacks, when she'd seen what she had done she gave her father 41"

    She did it all righty.
    When I die I'm going to be watching and if anyone yells "REPENT" I'm gonna wallop him hard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cettie View Post
    A little verse we learned as kids "Lizzy Borden took an axe and gave her mother 40 whacks, when she'd seen what she had done she gave her father 41"

    She did it all righty.
    I was just going to post this very same verse!
    I remember watching the tv movie when I was young, I think it was Elizabeth Montgomery that played Lizzie in it.

  7. #57
    I watched a documentery about it. After seeing all of the other evidence I can't be sure that she did it . I am iffy.

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    For a long time I was absolutely convinced that the maid did it. I always thought that Lizzie, even though not entirely happy with her step mother loved her father way to much to kill him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donnagg123 View Post
    What do you think....did she or didn't she?

    Here is a link to autopsy photos of the bordens **Graphic**

    http://thechanceryhouse.com/residentghosts_autopsy.htm

    Here is a link to autopsy report

    http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/proj...autopsies.html
    Really disgusting pics...nice job, I'd never seen these before!

    All I can say is...SOMEbody was really pissed off at mommy & daddy...



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    I just watched a show about this tonight. Two fellas got to dig out the actual ax head and the scarf mom was wearing. Fun. Anyway, they don't seem to think Lizzie did it, but a hired hand who didn't like working for the Bordens.

    It was an interesting show, but the damned narrator kept making those damned pun-like comments during the show. I hate that crap. I'm not a 60 year old English teacher amused by wordplay. Give me death details!

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    I've seen the "crime scene" photos before, but not the autopsy ones. Thanks for posting! The crime scene ones of Andrew Borden in particular are oogy, even in black and white. His face was completely destroyed and he's slumped over sideways on a sofa in their sitting room. Looks like a really personal, angry attack to me. Lizzie's stepmother seemed to be attacked from behind.

    I'm not _entirely_ sure she did it, although my rememberence was that she wasn't exactly a tiny, dainty woman, and was probably capable of committing the crime physically. I certainly think her behavior the morning of the murders was highly peculiar, so if she didn't do it, I think she either was actively covering for someone who did, or at least knew she'd be implicated and helped cover up evidence.

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    New Lizzie Borden Photograph?

    Found this article today. Here's the text in part:

    By Andrew Ryan, Globe Staff
    It may be a new image of Lizzie Borden: An angelic 8- or 9-year-old girl with a hint of baby fat still noticeable in her creamy white cheeks. In the black-and-white photograph, she seems proud of the feather in her straw hat and her wool coat with a satin lined collar.


    That is far from the prevailing impression of Borden. Despite her acquittal at trial, she is commonly depicted as an ax-wielding spinster who got away with the murder of her father and stepmother in Fall River in 1892.


    The photograph, which does not identify the girl, was found last month in the collection of the Swansea Historical Society by Stefani Koorey, publisher of ''The Hatchet: Journal of Lizzie Borden Studies."

    And here's a link to the rest of the article and picture:
    http://www.boston.com/news/local/bre..._image_of.html

    I think it's a hoot that the journal on "Lizzie Borden Studies" is called "The Hatchet" LOL! I want a subscription.

    I'd say there is definitely a resemblance to adult Lizzie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry in Connecticut View Post
    I read a very plausible version of what happened. I'm trying to remember it.

    A relative was a little slow, but could work at this and that to earn a living. I'm not certain if it was a cousin, or as kelbons said, a son.

    He, for one thing, offered the service of killing, and taking away, old farm animals. He used an ax to the head.

    There was a quarrel in the family, and this guy came and killed them. In the book, a person who was a child then, recalls seeing him come out.

    Lizzie knew who it was, by the method, and did not want him hung. She told her lawyers, from what I recall, and they risked her life.

    A few years later, the real killer was very much assisted with his suicide by hanging.

    I knew a woman who grew up in Fall River. She told me the local talk, she heard from her elders, was that Lizzie was innocent and could be quite nice.
    If that is the case, it's ironic! Lizzie was trying to keep the guy from hanging and yet he still hanged! Anyhooters, from looking at those crime scene photos, it was all very personal. The angle of the step-mother's picture isn't great but it seems that the father took the brunt of the anger and to the face no less. And let's remember that Lizzie was no Lindsay Lohan. Lizzie was a pretty hefty girl. I have a hard time imagining her running around naked killing her step-mom and father. I think she probably got rid of the dress. What did Bridgit ever say about the crime? If she was outside, she would have seen somebody entering the home or if Lizzie was inside the house at the time of the killings and it was an intruder, wouldn't she have heard Lizzie scream? Gah....now I'm off to crimelibrary.com to read up on this. I know I've read it before but I can't seem to make up my mind.

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    lezzie borden?

    i kid, i kid...
    may the forces of evil get confused on the way to your house

  15. #65
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    for anyone who wants a very good read on the forensics of the lizzie borden case, also arguments on lizzie's possible innocence theories is quite fascinating:

    http://www.crimelibrary.com/notoriou...n/index_1.html

    borden house
    Last edited by hell0kitty; 05-22-2008 at 01:33 AM.
    pull the string!

  16. #66
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    I kinda think she did it. Killing someone with an axe is an awfully up-close-and-personal crime, from a psychological standpoint it points to her. Maybe not though.

    That last pic was gnarly! Where the hell was his face?!
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  17. #67
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    Here's another GREAT place to discuss Lizzie. I am fascinated by the story!

    http://lizzieandrewborden.com/LBForum/index.php

  18. #68
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    She did it all right.

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    Their family seemed very odd, paging VC Andrews.

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    I have always been intrigued by this case. I am not sure if she is guilty or not - I don't think that the evidence is clear one way or another. The wounds are so personal though, I think it was somebody who really hated the elder Bordens. Has anyone ever stayed in the B&B that used to be their house?

    Edited to add: Wow! Andrew Borden's head looks like mush!!!

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    The stepmum was killed at least one hour before the dad.
    It went like this.

    Dad goes out the house in the morning leaving wife, lizzie and maid in the house.

    Wife is upstairs in the bedroom cleaning when she has her head caved in - - neither lizzie nor maid heard or saw a thing - maid was outside cleaning the windows, lizzie said she was in the barn although they were both popping in and out of the house.

    About one hour later Dad comes home and sits in the lounge and gets his head caved in.

    Neither lizzie or maid heard a thing.

    So what was that killer doing in that hour? hiding in the house? it just doesn't make sense. And nothing was stolen.

    In addition, the old man was helping out his wife and her family financially - Lizzie saw that as him giving away her inheritance.

  22. #72
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    From everything ive read, she most likly did do it. Just at that time they didnt have the information or no how to prove it. It was pretty much a witch hunt and authorities where having a hard time believing that a mother could do such a thing.
    My grandfather told me once, and i forget where he heard it but, that there were some people with proof that Borden had committed the crimes. But the issue was with the Law enforcment not wanting to put Lizzy in jail because of a past tie she had to someone important. Cant remember the details but she was guilty
    "Living is not measured in how many breaths you take, but the moments that take your breath away!"


  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donnagg123 View Post
    What do you think....did she or didn't she?

    Here is a link to autopsy photos of the bordens **Graphic**

    http://thechanceryhouse.com/residentghosts_autopsy.htm

    Here is a link to autopsy report

    http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/proj...autopsies.html
    I think I will get me one of those Lizzie Borden tote bags, or perhaps a pillow

  24. #74
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    Wasn't there something about Lizzie and the maid being lesbian lovers? The theory (if I'm remembering this correctly and I may not be) was that they wanted both stepmom and dad out of the way so they could carry on their affair, in the house, without any recriminations AND get the money too!

    On the other hand, if they really did do it, why didn't anyone ever find any bloody clothes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by duster View Post
    Wasn't there something about Lizzie and the maid being lesbian lovers? The theory (if I'm remembering this correctly and I may not be) was that they wanted both stepmom and dad out of the way so they could carry on their affair, in the house, without any recriminations AND get the money too!

    On the other hand, if they really did do it, why didn't anyone ever find any bloody clothes?
    I have heard that she either burned or washed the clothes claiming they had menstrual blood on them. In the movie starring Elizabeth Montgomery as Lizzie she was naked when she killed them.

  26. #76
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    yes she was seen burning clothes and said she had menstrual blood or paint on them.

    I heard the lesbian story too but I think it was an over active imagination that came up with that one.

    The family were wealthy but lived in a part of town that wasn't top notch. Lizzie wanted to move in higher circles more befitting of their wealth in a house on the hill where the rich lived and where there was electricity and running water etc. But dad was a bit penny pinching with that kind of thing although he could be generous with his girls and wife - like paying for Lizzie to do Europe - that kind of thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyDay View Post
    yes she was seen burning clothes and said she had menstrual blood or paint on them.

    I heard the lesbian story too but I think it was an over active imagination that came up with that one.

    The family were wealthy but lived in a part of town that wasn't top notch. Lizzie wanted to move in higher circles more befitting of their wealth in a house on the hill where the rich lived and where there was electricity and running water etc. But dad was a bit penny pinching with that kind of thing although he could be generous with his girls and wife - like paying for Lizzie to do Europe - that kind of thing.
    Who was Europe? Some sort of gigolo?

  28. #78
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    Sher hated her step mother and called her by Mrs Borden. Lizzie was a lesbian and her sister moved out of the house they built together because of it. She also knew her father was making a new will and was going to leave more money to the SM and also the SM was going to control the estate after her father died. I think the sisters were in it together, The sister was "out of town" when they were murdered. The maid washing windows upstairs and downstair on the outside "didn't see anything" but I think she knew what was going to happen too and got paid off later.
    I read an article on Look magazine years ago about Lizzies attorney. His wife had said that there were instructions to destroy the Borden case file upon his death. That no one was ever to see it. Which she did . He was hiding something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by duster View Post
    Who was Europe? Some sort of gigolo?
    Ha ha!

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    Quote Originally Posted by motherogod View Post
    I just watched a show about this tonight. Two fellas got to dig out the actual ax head and the scarf mom was wearing. Fun. Anyway, they don't seem to think Lizzie did it, but a hired hand who didn't like working for the Bordens.

    It was an interesting show, but the damned narrator kept making those damned pun-like comments during the show. I hate that crap. I'm not a 60 year old English teacher amused by wordplay. Give me death details!


    I am not 60 or an English teacher,but I do like wordplay(not puns!)
    However, a show about a real-life murder is so not the place to use or annoy viewers with such things.

  31. #81
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    i actually knew one of the last members of the borden family, (part of the borden milk co, also lizzie borden family) and i have two artifacts from the borden house. i am also fascinated by the story! great links!
    pull the string!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hell0kitty View Post
    i actually knew one of the last members of the borden family, (part of the borden milk co, also lizzie borden family) and i have two artifacts from the borden house. i am also fascinated by the story! great links!

    Wow- you did ? What relation were they and what did they think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyDay View Post
    She did it all right.
    Quote Originally Posted by LadyDay View Post
    The stepmum was killed at least one hour before the dad.
    It went like this.

    Dad goes out the house in the morning leaving wife, lizzie and maid in the house.

    Wife is upstairs in the bedroom cleaning when she has her head caved in - - neither lizzie nor maid heard or saw a thing - maid was outside cleaning the windows, lizzie said she was in the barn although they were both popping in and out of the house.

    About one hour later Dad comes home and sits in the lounge and gets his head caved in.

    Neither lizzie or maid heard a thing.

    So what was that killer doing in that hour? hiding in the house? it just doesn't make sense. And nothing was stolen.

    In addition, the old man was helping out his wife and her family financially - Lizzie saw that as him giving away her inheritance.
    I agree with you, I think she did it. Very personal and violent crime.

  34. #84
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    One interesting book I read in 1985 and again just recently titled "Lizzie" by Frank Spiering suggests that her sister Emma did it and Lizzie "Took the Rap" for her. VERY interesting reading!
    Lizzie wasn't all that bright or sophisticated. In my opinion, she may have committed the murders, but she wasn't alone.
    Also odd that she and Emma died within days of one another without speaking for over 20 years and Emma wasn't aware Lizzie had passed. (If I'm remembering correctly.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by hoxharding View Post
    Wow- you did ? What relation were they and what did they think?
    her name was sally and she lived in the house that belonged to my godmother, who was a 'grande damme' of los angeles in its golden days. she was an odd character to say the least, i knew her when i was a child and she often sat me on her knees, i always knew that i was a little afraid of her for some reason..she had a rather loud and garrish voice, just a bit frightening...
    pull the string!

  36. #86
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    i think the heifer did it and in this day and age she would have been tried and convicted. she would have been on an episode of "snapped" or "suburban secrets" i think she wanted dad's money and he was not having it.

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    She did it. I would do murder too, if I had cold mutton stew for breakfast.

  38. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by lulubaines View Post
    She did it. I would do murder too, if I had cold mutton stew for breakfast.
    Ha ha. Cold mutton stew for breakfast. That's like leathery old lamb first thing in the morning. No wonder she cracked.

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    Yeppers

    Quote Originally Posted by Bake View Post
    I was just going to post this very same verse!
    I remember watching the tv movie when I was young, I think it was Elizabeth Montgomery that played Lizzie in it.
    And quite a good job of it she did! The movie leaned towards the "she done it" theory.
    I cried for shoes .... til I met a man with no feet.


  40. #90
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    I read where they never found the actual axe head that did the deed. They figured she dumped it in the outhouse EWWWW. I think if she did it she didn't do it alone. Also they shot her up I think it was with morphine for her "nerves" while she was in jail and she was really screwed up when testifying.

  41. #91
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    Link to DVD of the 1975 movie "The Legend of Lizzie Borden" with Elizabeth Montgomery;

    http://members.tripod.com/~bewitchvic/LizBord.html

  42. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by lulubaines View Post
    She did it. I would do murder too, if I had cold mutton stew for breakfast.
    Several day(s) old 'cold mutton stew' = Eeew !
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  43. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donnagg123 View Post
    What do you think....did she or didn't she?

    Here is a link to autopsy photos of the bordens **Graphic**

    http://thechanceryhouse.com/residentghosts_autopsy.htm

    Here is a link to autopsy report

    http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/proj...autopsies.html
    I must have missed this link before when I looked at this thread.

    I just laughed out loud at the ME's description of Abby Borden as "very well nourished and very fleshy"

  44. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by duster View Post
    Wasn't there something about Lizzie and the maid being lesbian lovers? The theory (if I'm remembering this correctly and I may not be) was that they wanted both stepmom and dad out of the way so they could carry on their affair, in the house, without any recriminations AND get the money too!

    On the other hand, if they really did do it, why didn't anyone ever find any bloody clothes?

    As if killing them violently wouldn't bring crowds ? I mean c'mon, like they'd be left alone in peace after such a crime.
    I doubt that that was the motive; the maid didn't stay there for long after the murders.

    How about this one though ? The stepmother catches LIZZIE & BRIDGET (maid) in a moment of passion and throws it in LIZZIE'S face that she can't wait to tell the father when he returns for lunch about what she saw.

    With the additional stories about LIZZIE stealing the prussic (sic) acid not long before the murders etc, I think that she had been silently 'stewing' for awhile. IMO- she did it. Why ? Several reasons, the main one being that LIZZIE believed that she'd been denied for long enough what she felt entitled to. If she didn't commit the murders, she damn well knew who had !
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  45. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by KELT View Post
    As if killing them violently wouldn't bring crowds ? I mean c'mon, like they'd be left alone in peace after such a crime.
    I doubt that that was the motive; the maid didn't stay there for long after the murders.

    How about this one though ? The stepmother catches LIZZIE & BRIDGET (maid) in a moment of passion and throws it in LIZZIE'S face that she can't wait to tell the father when he returns for lunch about what she saw.

    With the additional stories about LIZZIE stealing the prussic (sic) acid not long before the murders etc, I think that she had been silently 'stewing' for awhile. IMO- she did it. Why ? Several reasons, the main one being that LIZZIE believed that she'd been denied for long enough what she felt entitled to. If she didn't commit the murders, she damn well knew who had !
    Great theory Kelt!

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    Quote Originally Posted by neilmpenny View Post
    Ok, I am not up to speed on this, care to enlighten all of us please?
    See the movie with Elizabeth Montgomery!

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    That's a really good movie. Elizabeth Montgomery was chillingly believable as Lizzie.
    Just drink lots of Kool-Aid, and take one of these blue pills three times a day.

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    Great movie. Best thing Elizabeth Montgomery ever did imo...



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    thanks sel wonderful!!!!!!
    pull the string!

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