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Thread: Lizzie Borden gave her mother 40 whacks?

  1. #1
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    Lizzie Borden gave her mother 40 whacks?

    I know Lizzie has been mentioned on other threads, but I think she deserves her own...

    This story has always just fascinated me...

    Do you think she was guilty?

    Has anyone ever stayed at the murder house, which is now a B&B???

    Susan
    "Why does everything I whip leave me?"
    Homer to the universe-at-large
    The Simpsons Movie

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    I remember seeing something on TV about the case... there is also a theory that Mr. Borden's illegitemate son and Lizzie conspired, but he actually carried out the murders.

    Of course, no one will ever know the truth...

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    I read a very plausible version of what happened. I'm trying to remember it.

    A relative was a little slow, but could work at this and that to earn a living. I'm not certain if it was a cousin, or as kelbons said, a son.

    He, for one thing, offered the service of killing, and taking away, old farm animals. He used an ax to the head.

    There was a quarrel in the family, and this guy came and killed them. In the book, a person who was a child then, recalls seeing him come out.

    Lizzie knew who it was, by the method, and did not want him hung. She told her lawyers, from what I recall, and they risked her life.

    A few years later, the real killer was very much assisted with his suicide by hanging.

    I knew a woman who grew up in Fall River. She told me the local talk, she heard from her elders, was that Lizzie was innocent and could be quite nice.
    Take care,
    Harry

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    I was always "proud" as a kid growing up, the family rumor was that we were related to the step mother she killed.
    The survival of everyone on board depends on just one thing: finding someone on board who can not only fly this plane, but who didn't have fish for dinner.

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    My husband is aquainted with the present owners of the B&B. He asked me if I'd like to stay the night there next time we're in town.

    Ummmm...no thanks!

    And Lizzie? Guilty.

  6. #6
    My husband and I would LOVE to stay there, in the room where the mom was found. We've contacted the B&B about it. I think for that room you have to share a bathroom, which isnt my favorite thing to do, but think I could put up with it for a night!

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    To me, one of the most fascinating unsolved crimes.
    I'd love to stay in the B&B too. Too bad I live in WA.
    My husband lived in Boston for a couple years and he went on their guided tour one time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by different kind of girl View Post
    My husband and I would LOVE to stay there, in the room where the mom was found. We've contacted the B&B about it. I think for that room you have to share a bathroom, which isnt my favorite thing to do, but think I could put up with it for a night!

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    If LIZZIE didn't do it, she sure as shit knew who did.
    She was the only one in the house when the step-mother was killed. The maid was outside.
    The sister EMMA was out of town visiting.

    After LIZZIE was found 'Not Guilty', the sisters sold the house. Something happened between them. There was a fight and they never spoke to one another again. One version is that EMMA was scandalized because LIZZIE had befriended some actors and invited them to stay at her new home which she called 'MapleCroft'. Going even further, there's a scenario that LIZZIE had a lesbain affair with the one actress & that's what sent EMMA packing.

    The sisters died within days of each other in 1927, 35 years after the murders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by susalu View Post
    I know Lizzie has been mentioned on other threads, but I think she deserves her own...

    This story has always just fascinated me...

    Do you think she was guilty?

    Has anyone ever stayed at the murder house, which is now a B&B???

    Susan
    i would love to stay at her B & B~ i think she is guilty, but something provoked her~ i love when elizabeth montgomery plays her~

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    maybe im too young...who is lizzie borden? does anyone have a pic of her?

  12. #12
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    http://lizzieandrewborden.com/

    Here ya go geaux, you can read up on it here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweetsumthin View Post
    http://lizzieandrewborden.com/

    Here ya go geaux, you can read up on it here.
    thanks Tonya!!!

    i would love to stay at the B&B.... i saw a segment on it on the travel channel... freaky but cool!!!

    S
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    Ghost Hunters went there to investigate, but didn't find anything. I guess the ghosts were "off" the night they were there!

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    She kinda looked scary, whether she did it or not...

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    IF she did it ....I heard her dad was abusive that might be a reason, but the relative being protected sounds most likely

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    I just watched a documentary on this. They had Tom Lange (the detective from the Simpson/goldman murders) and another guy go through the evidence. They sprayed the basement with luminol and in the rafters, right under the spot that the old man bit it, blood showed up. Blood also showed up around the dry sink. I was surprised that even though they had the hatchet head that they claim was the murder weapon, they did not spray luminol on that. The naked eye showed no blood, but luminol would have and that would put one question to rest.

    I think she's guilty. On this documentary, they said that it was a well known "secret" that the old man was incestuous and that could have been one reason Lizzie went after him. They said that incest victims also resent the mother or mother-figure because they did nothing to protect them. So that's why she offed them both. Who knows, really. I guess we'll never know but it's interesting hearing theories.

    I'd stay at the B&B. Nothing to be scared of and I really love creepy places and things. I'd give my right arm to go along with the Ghost Hunters!

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    I don't know if she did it or not. It takes some muscle to be swinging an Ax let alone once it gets stuck in something tight, you have to put your foot, and use your weight to get the damn thing out. Especially if its not the sharpest thing. But then again I'm short, so since he was a big tall women probably had no problem. Ah those farm days, glad I'm not going that shit any more lol

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    i read online somewhere, maybe crimelibrary.com, not sure, but anyway, i read where they suspected that it was either a guy her father had fobidden her to see, or else a migrant worker who disappeared right at the time the murders happened.

    scenario #1, some guy lizzie had been slipping around on the down-low with finally went to her house to get dads permission, but dad got mad as hell and run him off, and then commenced to strap poor lizzies ass. she continued to see this guy and they conspired to do them in.

    scenario #2, a hobo or migrant worker who was seeking work and having little or no luck, came upon the house, dffound the doors unlocked(they didnt lock doors back then much), and suprised himself when mom and pop were at home, reacted violently. i have heard that a hobo in washington or something like that was making statements once about it, again, cant remember where. havent thought much about lizzie lately, but it is a interesting mystery.

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    i saw documentary on tv today that suggested a number of possible murderers, including the maid.... guess we'll never know...

    the parents were not pleasant people, or they did have enemies in town, according to the documentary... i guess the father was an early "Snidely Whiplash" foreclosing on people with no apparent compassion for the debtor...

    in any event, i see no resemblance between elizabeth montgomery and lizzie borden, as someone suggested in another thread... ah hollywood!!! the movie was good, though!! it suggested that lizzie stripped nekkid to kill her dad and stepmom... then washed off the blood and got back into her clothes...

    yuccccccccckk... i could never be a murderer!!

    Susan
    "Why does everything I whip leave me?"
    Homer to the universe-at-large
    The Simpsons Movie

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruffian View Post
    I just watched a documentary on this. They had Tom Lange (the detective from the Simpson/goldman murders) and another guy go through the evidence. They sprayed the basement with luminol and in the rafters, right under the spot that the old man bit it, blood showed up. Blood also showed up around the dry sink. I was surprised that even though they had the hatchet head that they claim was the murder weapon, they did not spray luminol on that. The naked eye showed no blood, but luminol would have and that would put one question to rest.

    I think she's guilty. On this documentary, they said that it was a well known "secret" that the old man was incestuous and that could have been one reason Lizzie went after him. They said that incest victims also resent the mother or mother-figure because they did nothing to protect them. So that's why she offed them both. Who knows, really. I guess we'll never know but it's interesting hearing theories.

    I'd stay at the B&B. Nothing to be scared of and I really love creepy places and things. I'd give my right arm to go along with the Ghost Hunters!
    I don't see how spraying luminol over 100 years later was useful. Who knows what has been done around that dry sink, over the years, for example? And there can be no surprise that there was blood under where Mr Borden died.

    As for the ax head, I'm betting it was sprayed long ago, and found not to be the weapon.
    Last edited by Harry in Connecticut; 10-23-2007 at 10:26 AM. Reason: left a word out, silly me
    Take care,
    Harry

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    My husband and I visited the house.

    If you ever are in the area it really is worth the price of admission.

    We will go back to stay - and yes, some rooms you do share a bathroom (the rooms upstairs). If you stay in the Borden's bedroom you have your own bath.

    The owner has a medium that will conduct a seance for those staying overnight. There's breakfast (obviously, since it is a B&B) but what isn't known is that you eat your full breakfast on the same spot of the autopsies. Apparently the autopsies were performed in the dining room. Yum.

    Lots of pictures, lots of information. As I said on another thread one of the dresses Elizabeth Montgomery wore in the movie is displayed in the Morse room. The studio donated it to the B&B.

    The owners have put a lot of work in it to make it as close to its original state - the copied furniture is amazing.

    As I said, it's a great tour.

    And if you go be on the lookout for "Max". He's a black cat who lives next door to Lizzie's house and often greets the guests. He's friendly and likes to be scratched!!

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    I read one theory Lizzie and the maid were lovers
    and that Lizzie was a lesbian, something that was unheard of in those times.
    Emma and Lizzie died with in weeks of each other.

    whoever did it was pretty smart about it.

    Just some usless facts

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    warning!crime scene pics


    [SIZE=-1]Abby*[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=-1]Abby*[/SIZE]
























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    A lot of people think that an axe was used ,but actually it was a (much smaller) hatchet that was the murder weapon .The misunderstanding probably from comes that 40 whacks rhyme.
    Quote Originally Posted by rjbrasher View Post
    I don't know if she did it or not. It takes some muscle to be swinging an Ax let alone once it gets stuck in something tight, you have to put your foot, and use your weight to get the damn thing out. Especially if its not the sharpest thing. But then again I'm short, so since he was a big tall women probably had no problem. Ah those farm days, glad I'm not going that shit any more lol
    Last edited by rantat; 11-14-2007 at 05:56 PM.

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    I think Lizzie did it. When questioned about the "bloody rags" soaking in the bucket of water, it was explained away that Lizzie was having her period. Back in those days, there were no sanitary napkins, but pieces of cloth in strips that women wore between their legs to catch the blood. The "rags" could have been Lizzie's bloody dress, but due to such a delicate subject, no one actually looked. Also, I think the judge issued some instructions that if she had not been acquited, appeals would have set her free. No matter what happened, she was a weird chick!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irishlass View Post
    I read one theory Lizzie and the maid were lovers
    and that Lizzie was a lesbian, something that was unheard of in those times.
    Emma and Lizzie died with in weeks of each other.

    whoever did it was pretty smart about it.

    Just some usless facts

    Useless facts? Those are great facts. Where did you find that at? I would love to read that info.

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    Yep, they died nine days apart. Lizzie on 6-1-27 aged 67 and Emma 6-10-27 aged 76.
    Quote Originally Posted by KELT View Post
    If LIZZIE didn't do it, she sure as shit knew who did.
    She was the only one in the house when the step-mother was killed. The maid was outside.
    The sister EMMA was out of town visiting.

    After LIZZIE was found 'Not Guilty', the sisters sold the house. Something happened between them. There was a fight and they never spoke to one another again. One version is that EMMA was scandalized because LIZZIE had befriended some actors and invited them to stay at her new home which she called 'MapleCroft'. Going even further, there's a scenario that LIZZIE had a lesbain affair with the one actress & that's what sent EMMA packing.

    The sisters died within days of each other in 1927, 35 years after the murders.

  29. #29
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    Back in those days a lady who was having her period referred to it as having the fleas.
    Quote Originally Posted by poppie View Post
    I think Lizzie did it. When questioned about the "bloody rags" soaking in the bucket of water, it was explained away that Lizzie was having her period. Back in those days, there were no sanitary napkins, but pieces of cloth in strips that women wore between their legs to catch the blood. The "rags" could have been Lizzie's bloody dress, but due to such a delicate subject, no one actually looked. Also, I think the judge issued some instructions that if she had not been acquited, appeals would have set her free. No matter what happened, she was a weird chick!

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    I think Lizzie did it. This was not a random act but one of pure hatred and rage. I would love to see the house but don't think I could spend the night. Wouldn't sleep a wink knowing what happened there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aries65 View Post
    Ghost Hunters went there to investigate, but didn't find anything. I guess the ghosts were "off" the night they were there!
    Yeah, I saw that too. I'd also stay there.
    .

    Life goes on.

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    Another theory I've read was that Emma - who was visiting friends - did it. How? She could have slipped away, driven home in the friends' buggy, done the murder, and left again. There were no actual eye witnesses to confirm her whereabouts when the murders actually occurred.

    Do I think Emma did it? Who knows? Do I think Lizzie did it? Same answer. Unless someone finds an authentic and ironclad confession, we'll never actually know. I do know, however, that I feel pity for her and her sister.

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    I think Lizzie did it.....I don`t think men at the time could wrap their mind around the fact a woman was capable of such a hideous crime.....they wanted to hang her but balled out....personally I would have just run away from home....

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by KELT View Post
    If LIZZIE didn't do it, she sure as shit knew who did.
    She was the only one in the house when the step-mother was killed. The maid was outside.
    The sister EMMA was out of town visiting.

    After LIZZIE was found 'Not Guilty', the sisters sold the house. Something happened between them. There was a fight and they never spoke to one another again. One version is that EMMA was scandalized because LIZZIE had befriended some actors and invited them to stay at her new home which she called 'MapleCroft'. Going even further, there's a scenario that LIZZIE had a lesbain affair with the one actress & that's what sent EMMA packing.

    The sisters died within days of each other in 1927, 35 years after the murders.
    Well Lizzie was gay and she moved some woman in and her sister split. SHe was not happy with Lizzies life style. I think that her sister knew who did it too. SHe was convientenly out of town when it happend. I think lizzie got naked and killed the step mother and then the father and cleaned up, threw the ax in the outhouse. They were giving her heroin for her nerves while in jail and she became an adict and that is why she was in a fog during the trial. A lawyer I once met said that Lizzies attorney had a whole bunch of notes aboutthe killings and when he died they were destroyed by the family. He knew she did it.
    I think she got naked because they couldn't find a dress with blood on it even tho she burnt a few dresses after their deaths I dont think they had blood on them. She hated her step mother and her dad was soooo cheap and Lizzie wanted a better life than a house with an outhouse and she was afraid that the step mother was going to get everything and she would be out in the cold.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelbons View Post
    She kinda looked scary, whether she did it or not...
    She had very light blue/grey eyes. I think if her hair was done differently she could have been pretty,

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    i don't know whether lizzie did it or not, but all she got for her troubles was a kick axe jump rope song titled after the her and the events


    When platform shoes would do a world of good.

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    I personally think that all would be murderers should have a death bed confession. After all, what can anyone do?

    I think the contractor that supposedly killed Bryan what's-his-name from the Stones was very courteous when doing that.
    For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38-39

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirttrackdemon3 View Post
    i read online somewhere, maybe crimelibrary.com, not sure, but anyway, i read where they suspected that it was either a guy her father had fobidden her to see, or else a migrant worker who disappeared right at the time the murders happened.

    scenario #1, some guy lizzie had been slipping around on the down-low with finally went to her house to get dads permission, but dad got mad as hell and run him off, and then commenced to strap poor lizzies ass. she continued to see this guy and they conspired to do them in.

    scenario #2, a hobo or migrant worker who was seeking work and having little or no luck, came upon the house, dffound the doors unlocked(they didnt lock doors back then much), and suprised himself when mom and pop were at home, reacted violently. i have heard that a hobo in washington or something like that was making statements once about it, again, cant remember where. havent thought much about lizzie lately, but it is a interesting mystery.
    On the contrary, the BORDEN household was tightly locked, even between rooms. There was a lot of distrust within the household itself. At the time of the first murder, the front door was bolted and the back door was latched as the maid BRIDGIT was outside. After MR. BORDEN came home through the front door, the front door was definitely locked, the back door seems to come into question. There are varying accounts.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOVSTORM View Post
    Well Lizzie was gay and she moved some woman in and her sister split. SHe was not happy with Lizzies life style. I think that her sister knew who did it too. SHe was convientenly out of town when it happend. I think lizzie got naked and killed the step mother and then the father and cleaned up, threw the ax in the outhouse. They were giving her heroin for her nerves while in jail and she became an adict and that is why she was in a fog during the trial. A lawyer I once met said that Lizzies attorney had a whole bunch of notes aboutthe killings and when he died they were destroyed by the family. He knew she did it.
    I think she got naked because they couldn't find a dress with blood on it even tho she burnt a few dresses after their deaths I dont think they had blood on them. She hated her step mother and her dad was soooo cheap and Lizzie wanted a better life than a house with an outhouse and she was afraid that the step mother was going to get everything and she would be out in the cold.
    Well, that was certainly the theory played out in the tv movie years ago with ELIZABETH MONTGOMERY playing Lizzie, wasn't it ?

  40. #40
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    We have visited there a few times, since it is so close by. No overnights yet though, although 2 of my SIL's did, they enjoyed it.

    We'll see if we can get reservations for this year sometime.

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    Another theory I've read was that Emma - who was visiting friends - did it. How? She could have slipped away, driven home in the friends' buggy, done the murder, and left again. There were no actual eye witnesses to confirm her whereabouts when the murders actually occurred.
    There was an episode of Alfred Hitchcock Presents that presented a similar scenario. It was titled "The Older Sister" and showed Emma as the killer.

  42. #42
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    Lizzie is innocent she was covering up for her sister.
    Who was the real murder.

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    Another facinating case that sticks with us.

    I am on the fence on this one.

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    On the fence as well...

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    "Having the fleas" LMAO!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjbrasher View Post
    I don't know if she did it or not. It takes some muscle to be swinging an Ax let alone once it gets stuck in something tight, you have to put your foot, and use your weight to get the damn thing out. Especially if its not the sharpest thing. But then again I'm short, so since he was a big tall women probably had no problem. Ah those farm days, glad I'm not going that shit any more lol
    I've always thought the same thing, those are some pretty messed up corpses for one lone woman to have done the job...but then as you say, farm girls are used to the heavy lifting!

    This one is indeed a true mystery.



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    farm girls are used to the heavy lifting!
    _____
    True, but the Borden 'girls' weren't farm girls. They were 'townies'. The family was socially prominent, and for the Borden's to do heavy work would have been seen as disgraceful.

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    Was it verified that Lizzie was a lesbian, or is that an urban legend?

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    No Legend

    Quote Originally Posted by lisalouver View Post
    Was it verified that Lizzie was a lesbian, or is that an urban legend?
    I also read somewhere that Lizzie was gay....that sometime after she moved to MapleCroft, she was mentioned by name in a divorce suit (as "Lizbeth A. Borden") as alienating of affection of the wife....this of course was hugely scandelous, and Emma basically disowned Lizzie, who proceeded to hang out with actresses (le horror!!!) until her death.....

    I love the Lizzie Borden story--we will never know who did the killing but I think it was Lizzie....and I would gladly stay a night at the B&B--it would be a hoot!!!

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    i want to stay at the b&b but i know i cant. i have an overactive imagination....so no matter if nothing happened i would probably think it did. lol but i do want to go see it. she is so guilty.....and The Legend of Lizzie Borden is the BEST MOVIE EVER!

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