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Thread: Jonathan Frid

  1. #1
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    Jonathan Frid

    The Dark Shadows Fan Site FB page, as well as Kathryn Leigh Scott's site, is reporting that Jonathan Frid - Barnabas Collins from the legendary TV show "Dark Shadows" - has died at the age of 87.

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dark-S...58888330844089

    http://www.kathrynleighscott.com/?p=2190



    Looks like yet another bad week for childhood icons.

    VCNJ~
    Professional Thread-Killer

  2. #2
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    My mother raced home from school every day to watch Dark Shadows, trying to beat my grandmother to the TV (it was a big soap watching household, and apparently As the World Turns was on at the same time). She was in love with Barnabas Collins. I just relayed the news to her, and all I got in response was a wistful,"No..." I tried watching the show in reruns as a teenager, and while I didn't quite get the appeal, I saw how much my mother loved it, and I was happy it made her happy. RIP Mr. Frid, and thank you for providing my mother some much-needed happiness over the years.

  3. #3
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    You don't know how many of us used to rush home from school to watch Dark Shadows. Luckily here it didn't compete timewise with ATWT - Mother would have won that battle!!!!

    To get it, you just sort of had to be there at the time.

    Sorry to hear about his passing.

  4. #4
    MPetro108 Guest
    I was one of those who use to rush home from school to watch it. Enjoyed the re-runs in later years and actually started purchasing the VHS series when it came out...RIP Mr. Frid

  5. #5
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    That was my first memory of Dark Shadows when I heard this. Hoping to goodness that the bus wouldn't be late, I guess that show started at four. I was watching it one time and mt Dad snuck up behind me and booed me. I about defecated. Loved that show.

    I have always thought it strange that Frid didn't do more things. It seemed Dark Shadows and that was it for his TV career.
    "Everybody is born, and everybody dies. Being born wasn't so bad , was it?"
    Peter the Hermit

  6. #6
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    I swear, the older I get the more senile I become. I have always thought he was already dead. Feeling ashamed right now.
    Cindy

  7. #7
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    How fitting a vampire dies on an unlucky day (Friday the 13th). He'll be back.
    When you lose a parent you lose your past. When you lose a spouse you lose your present. When you lose a child you lose your future.
    R.I.P Kim: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg...336317&df=all&
    R.I.P Dad http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg...&GRid=93315851
    R.I.P Mom http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg...&GRid=97780420

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnusDippytack View Post
    That was my first memory of Dark Shadows when I heard this. Hoping to goodness that the bus wouldn't be late, I guess that show started at four. I was watching it one time and mt Dad snuck up behind me and booed me. I about defecated. Loved that show.

    I have always thought it strange that Frid didn't do more things. It seemed Dark Shadows and that was it for his TV career.
    Would have loved to see it when your dad scared you, bet it was hilarious!!!!

    My guess is that JF was so typecast after that, he probably couldn't have done anything if he wanted. They made the Dark Shadows movie (not the new one) with all the original cast members. I remember reading somewhere a looooong time ago that he was in either 20,000 Leagues under the Sea or Crack in the Earth (whatever the name of it was), as a native tribemember way down deep in the earth. Probably uncredited and I don't think you can pick him out. I'm not sure he had much of an acting career; other than Joan Bennet, I don't think any of them had much of an acting career before DS.

  9. #9
    Bidmor Guest
    I didn't realize Jonathan wasn't the only original DS cast member to make a cameo in the new movie. Considering it's a satire of the series, I don't understand why four of them consented. David Selby had a brief tv and movie career after leaving DS but noting of any consequence. But that was their choice to accept Burton's invitation for a walk-on. Burton should now place an acknowledgement of Jonathan Frid into the credits.

  10. #10
    knightstemplar22 Guest

    Dark Shadows

    GAAAWWWD. Another one gone!! Dark Shadows, in hindsight, was not THAT great of a show by todays standards, but as a kid of the sixties, it was so great and so different. Can anyone remember how BIG that show was...books, merchandising, etc. I remeber a friend of mine had all the novels and Josettes music box...was so jealous! Going to miss Barnabas!!

  11. #11
    Seagorath Guest
    Mr. Jonathan Frid visited my universitie's theatre department back in 1993 or 94. He came and spoke to us about the nuances of acting and his experiences working in television, especially Dark Shadows. He was a gentle and noble man...and very intelligent. He was quite lively and fun to be around. I will always remember him. R.I.P., Mr. Frid.

    'Click image for larger version. 

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  12. #12
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    I will tell you that I bought the Dark Shadows record album when it came out. Still have it. It had a dual poster of Barnabas and Quentin. The theme song will still scare the crap out of you if you listen to it in the dark. I remember when I was a kid watching this I swore when I was old enough I was going to have a pair of sideburns like Quentin. There was also some sixties dance music on the album, I remember the title of the song Back At The Blue Whale. Don't forget the hit Quentin's Theme (Shadows in the Night). IIRC Frid did some recitation on that song.
    "Everybody is born, and everybody dies. Being born wasn't so bad , was it?"
    Peter the Hermit

  13. #13
    pwem Guest
    Geezusmurphy! How very sad.

  14. #14
    gas_chick Guest
    RIP Barnabas! My mom loved the show as a kid so when they started showing reruns when I was a teen I had to watch it. Such cheesey fun!

  15. #15
    Hippo Guest
    OMG, I LOVED Him! I was 14 when Dark Shadows came out and I too raced home from school every day to watch it. I was enchanted with Barnabas. I knew that Mr. Frid was quite elderly, but it's still a sad shock.

  16. #16
    Hippo Guest
    I should add, it was a blessing that Mr. Frid was able to film his cameo appearance in the new Dark Shadows movie before he passed.

  17. #17
    Hippo Guest
    Still think this guy is awesome-looking. Maybe I'm just stuck in the past.


  18. #18
    pwem Guest
    No, you are not stuck in the past. His looks were unique and his voice mesmerized me. You could recognize it instantly. My first "older man".

  19. #19
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    I loved him when I was young, he was so good looking and scary.....RIP.

  20. #20
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    My friend and I had a babysitting job after school. After the mom found out we'd watched Dark Shadows, she henceforth left a note on the fridge, "NO DARK SHADOWS!!" We took turns running home and catching a few minutes of it. It was campy, scary, and I just loved it! RIP Jonathan Frid. Thanks for being a part of some fond memories for me!

  21. #21
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    I wrote this 10 years ago upon the occasion of seeing Mr. Frid perform one of his one-man shows at Lockwood-Mathews Mansion in Norwalk, CT.
    (Yes, it's based on the late Dan Fogelberg's "Leader of the Band.")

    Canadian Child,
    bright, shy and mild,
    A prosperous builder's son.
    His life was meant
    for different work,
    a most surprising one.
    He left his home
    and went his own
    and solitary way.
    And he gave to us
    a gift we know
    we never can repay.

    A man who lived for acting,
    denied a simpler fate.
    He went into the Navy once,
    but the stage just wouldn't wait.
    He plied his craft with discipline,
    and a thundering, velvet voice.
    His thorough way of sculpting roles
    made him directors' choice.

    We thank him for the Shakespeare,
    For "Arsenic and Old Lace."
    From "The Crucible" to "Mass Appeal".
    played with conviction
    and much grace.
    We thank him for the readings
    from Poe and other souls.
    And most of all, for "Barnabas",
    perhaps best-known and loved
    of all his roles.

    This man from Canada has slowed
    and his eyes are growing old.
    But his voice is still his instrument,
    and still can stir your soul.
    They broke the mold when he fell out,
    and everybody knows,
    there can be NO replacement for
    the man from the Shadows.

  22. #22
    Rudy's Girl Guest
    RIP Jonathan. I absolutely love the original Dark Shadows show! They are selling the entire series on Amazon for pre-order. It's a super high price, but it's a good deal for dedicated Dark Shadow fans with that kind of money.

    http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Shadows-C...4881173&sr=1-2

  23. #23
    Captain Kundalini Guest
    David Selby wrote a wonderful, heart felt tribute to his friend and colleague.

    A Letter To Jonathan
    Posted April 19, 2012.

    My dear friend,
    Once, when I talked to you in Canada, you told me that you were not going anywhere. You said you get out of bed, put on your robe and slippers, have a nibble of breakfast, and then sit down at your computer and check in with the world. So I took you at your word. You always told me what you thought. Now, you just up and go without a word. How dare you.
    You never mentioned that you were contemplating a long trip. After all, we had just recently returned from a rather long but short trip to the countryside of England where we took up residence in a very fine resort – at least what we saw of it was fine. The food you barely sampled, but the nightcap went down so smoothly that you told me you had not appreciated my entrance onto the show those many years ago. But I never knew. You were never anything but considerate to me, gentlemanly, a throwback to when there were gentlemen – courteous – exquisite charming manners but always with a quiet, respectful, measuring with those skeptical eyes, and then an easy smile.
    It seemed right for such fellow travelers to be in England. We were there to replay, visit, all the way back, a bit of our ancient history. That highway never ends. It was worth the trip just to hold your hand as you stepped off the curb….worth it to reflect back on the fine time I had reading that play with you in New York to all your adoring fans, worth it to feel anxious at Pinewood Studios when I could not find you for a few moments.
    How rare it is to be able go back in time to see where it all began. Our hosts could not have been more cordial. After all, as Tim said, in the glorious drawing room of that mansion– none of us would be here if not for you.
    Memory is a strange bird. It persists. Why? Memory is vivid. And love?! Well….what was it about Dark Shadows that compelled people like Tim and Johnny to watch, to be affected so, so strongly. They needed to watch, had to watch. They were drawn to Dark Shadows like a moth to light.
    Your light was full of mystery, of history, of genealogy, of love. You carried the heavy past with such grace and allure. That need to watch had something to do with love, a love for you.
    What is it about love that made Dark Shadows so needed by millions? They loved you, Jonathan, as did I.
    The night is long, the candles will stay lit.
    Till we meet again.


    David

  24. #24
    Captain Kundalini Guest
    I, like many of you got the word of Jonathan Frid's passing this morning.
    Also, like many of you, I too would run home from School to see what was up in Collinwood.
    Ironically enough, when I got the news I was reading a narration from the series.

    "My name is Victoria Winters.
    I am a stranger to the great house at Collinwood, but there are other strangers here, too;
    a man with riveting eyes, new to the land but not to its past.
    But Fate has sent a third, uninvited guest, one that has swept through the once quiet village
    and come to Widows Hill where they say cries of sorrow have been heard for centuries.
    Tonight they will be heard again, for the Third Visitor....is Death."

  25. #25
    Shannon Guest
    If he died on the 13th how come I'M just hearing about this now?
    Love Johnny! I still ware my Barnabas ring, especially with the movie coming out next month, I want everyone to know I'M a fan of the real Barnabas

  26. #26
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    RIP Mr. Frid. I loved you on Dark Shadows.

  27. #27
    GravesEnd Guest
    I'm very sorry to hear this. I followed his Web Site for the past several years. I also bought the DVD set of Dark Shadows. He will be dearly missed. I feel fortunate to have gotten his autograph in the past year. My condolences go out to all his loved ones. I had just seen him in a promo photo with Johnny Depp for the new Dark Shadows movie.

  28. #28
    CORONERGAL Guest
    Oh damn. Yet another piece of my childhood puzzle lost. My grandmother got me hooked on DS. I had a crush on Barnabas, me being into vampires at the time (I was very young!). I'm looking forward to the new DS but I, too, also hope Mr. Burton includes a tribute to Mr. Frid. After all, had it not been for him, there would BE no remake of Dark Shadows (even though it is a comic version), since, in my opinion, he made the show. R.I.P Jonathan.

  29. #29
    jo3077 Guest
    I feel heartbroken now, though it wasn't unexpected. Rest easy Mr. Frid. You were one of my first crushes.

  30. #30
    Rudy's Girl Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Kundalini View Post
    David Selby wrote a wonderful, heart felt tribute to his friend and colleague.

    A Letter To Jonathan
    Posted April 19, 2012.

    My dear friend,
    Once, when I talked to you in Canada, you told me that you were not going anywhere. You said you get out of bed, put on your robe and slippers, have a nibble of breakfast, and then sit down at your computer and check in with the world. So I took you at your word. You always told me what you thought. Now, you just up and go without a word. How dare you.
    You never mentioned that you were contemplating a long trip. After all, we had just recently returned from a rather long but short trip to the countryside of England where we took up residence in a very fine resort – at least what we saw of it was fine. The food you barely sampled, but the nightcap went down so smoothly that you told me you had not appreciated my entrance onto the show those many years ago. But I never knew. You were never anything but considerate to me, gentlemanly, a throwback to when there were gentlemen – courteous – exquisite charming manners but always with a quiet, respectful, measuring with those skeptical eyes, and then an easy smile.
    It seemed right for such fellow travelers to be in England. We were there to replay, visit, all the way back, a bit of our ancient history. That highway never ends. It was worth the trip just to hold your hand as you stepped off the curb….worth it to reflect back on the fine time I had reading that play with you in New York to all your adoring fans, worth it to feel anxious at Pinewood Studios when I could not find you for a few moments.
    How rare it is to be able go back in time to see where it all began. Our hosts could not have been more cordial. After all, as Tim said, in the glorious drawing room of that mansion– none of us would be here if not for you.
    Memory is a strange bird. It persists. Why? Memory is vivid. And love?! Well….what was it about Dark Shadows that compelled people like Tim and Johnny to watch, to be affected so, so strongly. They needed to watch, had to watch. They were drawn to Dark Shadows like a moth to light.
    Your light was full of mystery, of history, of genealogy, of love. You carried the heavy past with such grace and allure. That need to watch had something to do with love, a love for you.
    What is it about love that made Dark Shadows so needed by millions? They loved you, Jonathan, as did I.
    The night is long, the candles will stay lit.
    Till we meet again.


    David



    What a beautiful letter. Thanks so much for posting it. I was just so in love with Quentin and Barnabas. Sigh.....

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linnie View Post
    I wrote this 10 years ago upon the occasion of seeing Mr. Frid perform one of his one-man shows at Lockwood-Mathews Mansion in Norwalk, CT.
    (Yes, it's based on the late Dan Fogelberg's "Leader of the Band.")

    Canadian Child,
    bright, shy and mild,
    A prosperous builder's son.
    His life was meant
    for different work,
    a most surprising one.
    He left his home
    and went his own
    and solitary way.
    And he gave to us
    a gift we know
    we never can repay.

    A man who lived for acting,
    denied a simpler fate.
    He went into the Navy once,
    but the stage just wouldn't wait.
    He plied his craft with discipline,
    and a thundering, velvet voice.
    His thorough way of sculpting roles
    made him directors' choice.

    We thank him for the Shakespeare,
    For "Arsenic and Old Lace."
    From "The Crucible" to "Mass Appeal".
    played with conviction
    and much grace.
    We thank him for the readings
    from Poe and other souls.
    And most of all, for "Barnabas",
    perhaps best-known and loved
    of all his roles.

    This man from Canada has slowed
    and his eyes are growing old.
    But his voice is still his instrument,
    and still can stir your soul.
    They broke the mold when he fell out,
    and everybody knows,
    there can be NO replacement for
    the man from the Shadows.
    This is lovely.

    I'm so sorry to hear of his passing. I remember my grade school girlfriends and I would dash to one of their homes every afternoon to watch DS, and how popular 'Barnabas' was. Thankfully Mr Frid got to take part in Tim Burton's movie before his passing. RIP sir.
    I never wanted to see anybody die, but there are a few obituary notices I have read with pleasure. ~ Clarence Darrow

  32. #32
    kimmer927 Guest
    I grew up overseas in the 60's &70's so I missed out on seeing Dark Shadows, but caught 1 episode in Hong Kong & I was riveted!!!!! Then we could order books about Dark Shadows, but they were "chapter books' no pictures and I lost interest...
    But upon hearing of Mr.Frid's passing my husband starting telling me stories of his mother and what a HUGE Dark Shadows fan she was! All 3 kids were not permitted to make a peep while the show was on...At that time his parents played in a band at night and she would begin to get made up for that evenings performance after Dark Shadows went off...

    It's so cool to hear how memories affect you when hearing a bit of news even if you haven't thought about something in a long time...he did call his Mother after hearing this and she had already heard...but she appreciated his thinking of her...Thank you Mr. Frid, you connected people without meaning to...

  33. #33
    TheMysterian Guest
    R.I.P. Mr Frid!

  34. #34
    Bidmor Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudy's Girl View Post
    RIP Jonathan. I absolutely love the original Dark Shadows show! They are selling the entire series on Amazon for pre-order. It's a super high price, but it's a good deal for dedicated Dark Shadow fans with that kind of money.

    http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Shadows-C...4881173&sr=1-2
    When I went to that Amazon page and saw the price (near $500) it struck me that people are willing to pay for better television entertainment and for that one has to go back the 1960's and 70's primarily. If you want to call these types of programs "cult favorites", fine. What seemed offbeat then is now considered groundbreaking. DS falls into that category. The passing of Jonathan Frid certainly contributes to the higher price of the new DS box set but not the primary factor...it's the entertainment factor.

    This parallels other "cult" shows, and films for that matter. For example, a new box set of the 2006 Diana Rigg era of The Avengers also commands near $500...although I saw one box priced at $1000 but who knows. The point is this...many people are pining for good television as opposed to tripe which dominates now, and they're willing to pay for it if possible and need be. Whether it's a different and compelling slant on gothic drama or tongue-in-cheek spy adventures or what have you, the cheesy sets didn't matter...it was an intelligent story matched with right player!

    Jonathan Frid was one of those players.

  35. #35
    Rudy's Girl Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Bidmor View Post
    When I went to that Amazon page and saw the price (near $500) it struck me that people are willing to pay for better television entertainment and for that one has to go back the 1960's and 70's primarily. If you want to call these types of programs "cult favorites", fine. What seemed offbeat then is now considered groundbreaking. DS falls into that category. The passing of Jonathan Frid certainly contributes to the higher price of the new DS box set but not the primary factor...it's the entertainment factor.

    This parallels other "cult" shows, and films for that matter. For example, a new box set of the 2006 Diana Rigg era of The Avengers also commands near $500...although I saw one box priced at $1000 but who knows. The point is this...many people are pining for good television as opposed to tripe which dominates now, and they're willing to pay for it if possible and need be. Whether it's a different and compelling slant on gothic drama or tongue-in-cheek spy adventures or what have you, the cheesy sets didn't matter...it was an intelligent story matched with right player!

    Jonathan Frid was one of those players.



    Bidmor, I totally agree....

  36. #36
    1karenhb Guest
    I thought he had died years ago too. Weird he passed just before the remake comes out.

  37. #37
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    A nice article about Jonathan Frid from his hometown paper's website:

    http://www.thespec.com/whatson/artic...ter-to-live-on

    Lara Parker's (Angelique) reminiscences. Apparently, Mr. Frid was in rather worse condition than he, or anyone around him, let on to the public. Sadly, that is ordinarily the reality of being well over 80, like it or not.

    http://laraparkersite.blogspot.com/2...than-frid.html

    If he had survived his last hospital stay, he would have needed to go into a nursing home or assisted living at the very least, and such was, according to those who knew him, something he would NOT have liked. He was, by many accounts, a nice and classy, but also very independent and determined fellow who cherished his privacy. So while it's sad he didn't make it to his late mother's age of 98, or even got to see the final finished film product next month, he never had to experience a life of total dependency and worse decline of all his faculties before the "final act."

    Oh yes, I almost forgot, Johnny Depp's statement. The chap does have a nice way of putting things.

    http://herocomplex.latimes.com/2012/...nt-magical/#/0

    For this, I can probably tolerate the film after all. On second thought...
    Last edited by Linnie; 04-22-2012 at 12:50 AM.

  38. #38
    endsleigh03 Guest
    How weird. I thought he had died a long time ago and when I saw this thread I thought someone had bumped the old thread about it .

    RIP Mr Frid, and thanks.

  39. #39
    Porcupine69 Guest

    A Dark Shadows nod on Mad Men

    Anyone happen to notice the subtle nod to "Dark Shadows" on "Mad Men" Sunday night? The episode is set in November 1966, and Don Draper's would-be-actress wife Megan is helping a friend prepare for an audition on a soap opera. From the dialogue, any DS fan can clearly recognize that they are referencing the show, which Draper's wife coldly refers to as "a piece of crap." This was likely a very subtle case of product placement, given that the new DS movie just opened a few days before.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rudy's Girl View Post
    RIP Jonathan. I absolutely love the original Dark Shadows show! They are selling the entire series on Amazon for pre-order. It's a super high price, but it's a good deal for dedicated Dark Shadow fans with that kind of money.

    http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Shadows-C...4881173&sr=1-2
    They have it on Netflix

  41. #41
    Shannon Guest
    (((RIP Jonathan. I absolutely love the original Dark Shadows show! They are selling the entire series on Amazon for pre-order. It's a super high price, but it's a good deal for dedicated Dark Shadow fans with that kind of money.

    http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Shadows-C...4881173&sr=1-2)))


    Dang thats cool! In the end the price is probably worth it, thinking how much I spent on tapes. And when your done you can be buried in the box

  42. #42
    Captain Kundalini Guest
    I just found out that Jonathan Frid died from injuries he sustained in a fall at his home.

  43. #43
    Shannon Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Kundalini View Post
    I just found out that Jonathan Frid died from injuries he sustained in a fall at his home.
    Aw, where did you hear this?

  44. #44
    Biter Guest
    Actually, his nephew stated that he suffered a fall at home and passed away in his sleep at the hospital, due to pneumonia.

  45. #45
    Bidmor Guest
    From these and other similar accounts, Jonathan died in a Hamilton, Ontario hospital as a result from complications of a fall he suffered in his home in Ancaster. As memory serves, he died during or soon after surgery but I could be wrong about that. There is a vid of him on YT at a DS convention falling on stage...I believe it was 2009 or 2010.
    http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/168...-shadows.jhtml
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/20/ar...ies-at-87.html
    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/show...frid-dies.html

  46. #46
    Hippo Guest
    I went to see the "Dark Shadows" film today, taking one for the team, so to speak.

    It was pretty good, although I don't think I would have cared for it if I were not a fan of the original TV show. Four members of the TV show appear in a party sequence, and I was very pleased to see that Jonathan Frid was very visible, entering the party and walking toward the camera. He's not back in some tiny corner. I guess the other people with him were the other cast members, because he had a person on either side of him, helping him to walk. I didn't get a good look at them, because I was staring at Jonathan. I inadvertently reached out from my seat with my arms to help him. Good thing the theater was practically empty and I was in the back row.

    I would have liked to re-wind that portion of the movie and get a better look. They are greeted at the door by Johnny Depp, who says, "Welcome to Collinwood," but the guests don't have any lines.

    I stayed until the very last of the credits to see if there was any tribute to him. He was given screen credit as a party guest, but at the end, it only said, "To the Memory of Dan Curtis." I noticed that two people with the last name of Curtis were listed as consultants on the film, assuming those are family members.

    If anybody would like to discuss the movie, I am open to it. I don't think the movie is doing very well. It's a mix of comedy and horror, and I would not recommend it unless a person is a huge Johnny Depp fan or a fan of the TV show.

  47. #47
    Hippo Guest
    I was going to add, the movie has made about $57 million dollars in two weeks, but the budget was $150 million. There are A LOT of special effects, and that movie is going to have to make about $280 million just to break even. It's number 7 at the box office this weekend, it's got a lot of stiff competition.

  48. #48
    jo3077 Guest
    Hi Hippo,

    I liked the movie, though everyone else seems to be trashing it. It helped take the sting out of Mr. Frid's death and I understood the comedy angle. How else could they approach it, it would take a minimum 4 hr. movie to even begin covering the entire series...

  49. #49
    Bidmor Guest
    Hippo...the ladies flanking Jonathan in the film are Lara Parker (Angelique) and Kathryn Leigh Scott (Maggie), according to Parker's account:
    http://laraparkersite.blogspot.com/2...than-frid.html

  50. #50
    Hippo Guest
    To Bidmor:

    I figured it was them, but I couldn't take my eyes off Jonathan. That's why it would be nice to have that Rewind button in the movie theater. I'm thrilled that he was able to film this small cameo before he died.

    I mis-spoke in an earlier post; Dark Shadows is number 5 at the box office this weekend, not number 7. However, it's only made about $65 million, and the budget was $150 million. So this will probably end up being a huge flop.

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