Renowned Death Hag
Hello my fellow death hags! I'm new to the site and new to the NY area so you guys are my only friends (sheading a tear). But, I digress....I know it's been brought up a million times before, but what is the general concensus (I hope I spelled that right) about the death of Marilyn? Do you all think the Kennedys expidited her departure? My gut tells me it was NOT a suicide. Just making conversation. Say, are there any other Joplin and Elvis freaks out there, too?
I always kind of thought that they did..just too many things point to it for me..and yes I love Janis! welcome to the board!
I'm inclined to think that, if not a suicide, it was probably an accidental overdose...
Renowned Death Hag
Thank you, Snoopy. Glad to be here!
There is a cottage industry on Marilyn -- her image for sale and the books written by complete liars.
I believe the "Kennedy/CIA or Mob murdered her" theory to be nonsense. She may have met Jack and Bobby at Peter Lawford's beach house in passing - but screwing them? doubtful and Bobby's supposed visit on the day she died -- nonsense.
MM had many documented overdoses and suicide attempts in her 20's and 30's.
By age 36, and her last Summer in 1962 -
she was fired from FOX (and NO they were not hiring her back).
she was terrified of age and losing her looks
she had become a huge drug addict
She also felt depressed because Arthur Miller's new wife (who he met on set of The Misfits) was about to give birth to their baby -- and MM knew this very well.
She wanted an escape -- a big sleep, and she gulped down many pills.
Last edited by LutherHeggs; 10-04-2007 at 02:21 PM.
Hands up to being an Elvis Freak.... *sorry looking around embarassed*
OK, my theory on how Marilyn died. Keep in mind that I have been obsessed with marilyn for more than 20 years now, and I have thought about this ALOT!
It's pretty common knowledge that Marilyn kept Eunice Murray as a housekeeper. What many don't know is that Mrs. Murray was in the employ of Dr. Ralph Greenson, Marilyn's physchiatrist. Greenson was clearly obsessed with marilyn, and regularly kept her as his only patient, and frequently had her in his house to "see how a normal family lived". Mrs. Murray was planted at Marilyn's house by Greenson so he could keep tabs on his patient at all times.
Marilyn, in my opinion, had realized that the people she was surrounding herself with were only holding her back, and she was determined to get better. So one day she decided to not see Greenson anymore, and she even fired Mrs. Murray the day Marilyn died. I think that Greenson was so distraught about losing the patient that brought him success and notoriaty, he had Mrs. Murray give Marilyn a barbituate enema in the hopes of making Marilyn believe she was about to overdose on sleeping pills, thus making her believe she still needed Greenson. What Greenson didn't know was that Marilyn's internist, Hyman Engleberg had given Marilyn a prescription for Nembutal (or am I getting it backward) and she had taken several that night. The chloryl hydrate that was in the enema had mixed with the Nembutal and killed her. I do believe her death was acciental in that respect. Mrs. Murray flipped out and called Greenson. He hurried over and together they tried to make it look like a suicide. Greenson broke Marilyn's bedroom window to try to make it look like they had to enter her room from it (as they said her door was locked), and they disposed of the enema's equipment (Murray's son simply threw the garbage in a trash can that was not located at Marilyn's home), Mrs. Murray washed the sheets to get rid of the evidence of an enema (she was found doing laundry at the time the police first arrived), and they positioned her in a way that would be consistant with an overdose suicide. They know she was postioned because there was lividity on the opposite side of her body than where she was found. It wasn't as pronounced as the lividity on her face where she was found laying becasue she had been moved before it could take hold.
So after my long winded theory, the bottom line is that I think Marilyn was accidentally killed by Greenson and Murray, becasue he couldn't fathom being with out the celebrity Marilyn brought him.
Now, as for the Kennedy's involvement, I do not believe they had anything to do with her death but they definately DID cover things up after she was gone. There is the red diary that went mising, that supposedly contained notes of Marilyn's conversations with both Jack and Bobby. Peter Lawford (JFK's Bro in law) was also a friend to Marilyn, but was loyal to the Kennedy's. I think it was he who went to Marilyn's house to recover the diary, even before he died, because he (and supposedly Bobby) were seen at her house earlier that day. When they found she died, they jumped at the chance to "clean house" to protect them from any scandal.
OK, I'm done. Sorry to be so long
hmmm-- interesting theory on an enema adding to the overdose.
MM had a drinking glass next to her bed (from the unusually shaped set that she bought in Mexico with Mrs Murray along for trip) and MM had plenty of pills to do herself in without any assistance.
Greenson would've had loads of guilt regardless of an enema or not. He was a celeb client-obsessed Dr. FeelGood.
Funny how book after book claims "there was no drinking glass" -- "no pills in her stomach!"
well - there WAS a glass and photos of the death scene show it next to bed and it's not uncommon for an addict's stomach to process pills quickly and leave no residue.
Peter Lawford never responded to her calls that day, which haunted him, so he fabricated the whole " Say GoodBye to The President..." quote and story of him running to her side and finding note & diary story" in his own alcohol-drenched dark days many years later.
Eunice Murray's vacation after the funeral was planned long before MM died - and it was not a guilt-fueled escape plan as some books claim.
Last edited by LutherHeggs; 10-04-2007 at 02:49 PM.
there was a drinking glass, but no water was available as marilyn's bathroom faucet was not working. and we know that she didn't leave her room at all that night. the autopsy does show bruising and discoloration of the colon which leads me more to that conclusion.
no, i don't believe that mrs. murray was paid off by the kennedy's or wisked off to avoid confrontaion. lawford never responded to her phone call that night because of his dinner party, and of course because he was a drunk idiot who didn't realize she was crying for help. i don't think marilyn offed herself. i do think she was killed, but that was an accident. and i do think her death was taken advantage of by those who knew her.
of course, we will never know how she died, and we all have out own theories, and i respect that fact.
faucet broken..yes I have heard that.
well there was plenty of champagne around to gulp down pills. She was living on champagne and pills those final weeks and showing off her new slim figure to visitors.
This investigation by internet sleuths is invaluable - and accurate in my opinion.
The DD Group: An Online Investigation Into the Death of Marilyn Monroe
From January through October 2003, a group of individuals engaged in an in-depth discussion of the death of one of the 20th century's most beloved figures, Marilyn Monroe. The result is The DD Group, the highly detailed work of author David Marshall. It chronicles Monroe’s final day and her tragic and puzzling demise.
Using available information including police reports, vintage magazine and newspaper accounts, documentaries and biographies, and correspondence with some of the principals in the case, the group had one purpose—to reconstruct the events of Monroe's last summer and reach an understanding of what likely took place on August 4, 1962.
By verifying sources, considering agendas, and, above all else, applying logic, the DD Group was able to weed through the conflicting and often contradictory reports. Through careful research and study, they arrived at the most comprehensive understanding of the events surrounding Monroe's disturbing death.
http://amazon.com/dp/0595345204/ref=nosim/httpstrateama-20
Last edited by LutherHeggs; 10-04-2007 at 03:01 PM.
oh, yeah, there was plenty of chamaigne, but they never found any bottles in her room. as i had said before, she didn't leave her room at all that night.
i haven't read the DD group's book yet, but really want to. is it good reading?
Yes - it is excellent.
A little logic to cut through all the bogus books by parasites is a great thing.
This group did an excellent job. I have to really give them props.
cool. i'll definatley have to read it. i have gotten a little leary of any new book that comes out because, like you said, they are all written by parasites who only want to make a buck off of Marilyn.
Dose anyone else thinks its weird there is not one death scene pic?? They said they never took any...why? Also anyone ever heard the story about the mourge pics? I heard there were some taken, and they are hidden away in a safty deposit box not to be shown to public until the death of the photographer. I wonder if thats true...I mean a ledgend dies in a weird way and not one pic is taken ...wtf??? I love marilyn sooo much ,bless her heart! Im so gald they have a message board for findadeath now ...made my day !!
I have only seen one death pic of MM on slab in the book GODDESS by Summers (a book that perpetuated the koo koo theories, imo)
Last edited by LutherHeggs; 10-04-2007 at 03:26 PM.
Renowned Death Hag
That's a VERY good point, Lisamarie. I did see an autopsy pic of her in a book once.
Ain't nuthin' to be embarrased about QueenB! No matter how large he got, Elvis (imho) was the sexiest man in entertainment.
I have seen a dead Marilyn photo but it was online, not in a book...it was 5 years ago, though, and I just can't remember where it was.
Ah, found one...don't remember if it was the same site I saw it on all those years ago but it's definitely the same pic, standard warning, of course.
viral link removed
Last edited by JefeStone; 03-23-2010 at 10:54 AM.
Renowned Death Hag
Thanks for all the info, Erin! Maybe someday we'll know the truth. I just hope she's at peace now.
Senior Death Hag
Erin! hi girly!
As far as Marilyn's death, I've always pretty much leaned towards accidental OD although I have kept an open mind on it throughout the years.
There will always be endless theories and opinions; unfortunately it looks like no one will ever really know what occurred that night to the poor woman.
There's another photo that was taken before the autopsy where she look very beautiful and peaceful.
Last edited by norah; 10-04-2007 at 05:49 PM.
â??If you enter this world knowing you are loved and you leave this world knowing the same, then everything that happens in between can be dealt with.â? - Michael Jackson
The Summers book said there was evidence that an ambulance was called to her house that night. He postulated that she died in the ambulance, and then was taken back to her house. Accidental overdose with cover up.
[SIZE=5]My thinking is that the Kennedy's had something to do with Marilyns death. I think she knew to much about them and their business so she had to go.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=5]Morticia[/SIZE]
Too many drugs, too much loneliness . . . trapped in a lonely and depressing life. Yeah, the mob didn't like her because of the Kennedy's, but let's face it, if they killed her it would have been in a WAY different manner.
the ambulance theory is a bit strange to me as the story has changed through time. i am pretty stuck on my theory aboutthe enema for now.
Hi norah!!!! glad to see you here!!
i always thought that other postmortem phot was also post autopsy, but at a more flattering angle. i guess you learn something new, huh. i've also seen the pix of her toe tag, as most marilyn fanatics have, and i could have sworn i saw a pic of her laying on the bed before they took her to the ambulance, after her death, of course. maybe i was remembering a staged photo, or recreation?Originally Posted by norah
It was the enema, the Kenedys, some Hollywood moviestars. Marilyn did'nt wanna die that day. I bet if she was born n had her success later on she would be alive longer. She was used by everyone around her. It's always good too keep couple a good friends around to keep ya grounded.
Good im not going crazy! There was a pic that was floating around years ago, where it look like they were turning her over in bed or something. I remember seeing some kind of crime photo of the room where she died. She it just poofed as quickly as I saw it lol.
Senior Death Hag
Erin, you may very well be right. I have two photo's (same pic different angle) of when she looked good; some say it was before, some say after..so I'm really not sure if it was post or pre autopsy. If I remember, a site I got one of the pics off of said it was taken right after she died, but it was in a different language so when I converted the text it might not have been all that accurate.
â??If you enter this world knowing you are loved and you leave this world knowing the same, then everything that happens in between can be dealt with.â? - Michael Jackson
Yeah I found the same photo here: http://www.celebritymorgue.com/marilyn-monroe/
There are a few other death pics on this site too. Intersting. I would love to see a death scene photo if anyone knows of one. I think she was killed. I think the Kennedy mob thing makes sense. But that statement that she would have been killed another way had it been by them seems it would be true. But maybe they told the Kennedys to get rid of her? Just ironic that JFK, Bobby and MM are all gone now. I wish we could really know what happened that day. How sad. She lived a sad life. It is said that she had 14 abortions and then when she wanted to have a baby with Joe Dimaggio she couldn't carry one, and kept miscarrying.
Hi All,
I am new here. I have been a fan of Marilyn for over 20 years.
Erin ,I like your theory on how Marilyn died, and I had never really heard of it that way. Although she did OD on pills several times in her lifetime, and from what I have read, she would do this to see who would come running to "save her." Obviously whomever she was waiting for this time didn't come. I don't honestly know what I believe anymore. So many lies have been told over the years, so much cover up and so many people have died who really know the truth that I just feel we will never know. It's sad because Marilyn deserves so much more than that, and us, her fans, deserve so much more than that. It is because of all this that I choose to just appreciate her life and not concentrate on her death.
Another Elvis freak here.... BIG TIME!! No reason to be embarrassed!
I believe Marilyn was murdered. Whether or not the Kennedy's had anything to do with it, it certainly wouldn't surprise me. Like Morticia said she knew too much about them and I think it scared them.
Right, then this is the right place for that!
For years I have believed that Marilyn was killed on orders from either JFK or Bobby since she was totally fucked up and about to 'spill the beans' about her carryings on with them. But then I thought: Why would it matter to the Power that be since they had already planned to take out JFK. But maybe the plan to take out JFK did not happen until June 1963 - which was when he authorized the creation of money outside of the Federal Reserve System. This was money - called United States Notes, not Federal Reserve Notes - that owed no interest payments to the Fed and thus threatened to destroy their monopoly power. That supposedly was when he signed his own death warrant.
there are photos of her bedroom, taken after they took her body out. if you ever get the chance to see the book called A Hollywood Farewell, you will see them. It is a rare book though, only 500 in print, and they are VERY pricey. I have also seen pictures online. Look up Gene Anthony, who was a photographer back then. He and his wife were there on the scene the day she died. Also, look up Allan Abbott. He assisted in the enbalming of Marilyn's body, and was in the funeral business for many years.
As for the abortion rumors, she only had one in her lifetime. She suffered from pretty severe endometriosis, which made it nearly impossible for her to carry a child.
Boy howdy you aint lying when you said its pricey lol
http://www.amazon.com/Marilyn-Hollyw.../dp/0961914637
Last edited by rjbrasher; 10-05-2007 at 02:29 PM.
damn it cant get the link to load but its on amazon for like 2121.00 bucks wowie!
Yeah that's nuts! Anyway, if you want to get the link to work properly, edit the post to remove the "" from the end of it and it should work just fine. Or put a space between the end of the URL and the ":"
Yeah that's nuts! Anyway, if you want to get the link to work properly, edit the post to remove the "
sweetness thanks hun. Sorry kinda message board stupid been awhile since i been on these lol.
my dear fiend, who i go to hollywood with every year, actually bought the book!! he got it whe nit was still only $1000. the copy he has is signed by both the author and an affiliate. only 250 of the books were signed by them. it is also the only one in the world that has been signed by allan abbott, as well.
Wow i bet thats awesome to own!
Junior Death Hag
Hi everyone. Personally, I am fond of Erin's theory as well. I am member of a small group called the The Louder Assembly (similar to the "Chowder Society" in Ghost Story but not as refined lol ). We've been good friends and colleagues for years. Four times a year we get together and pick an unsolved case or mystery (fiction or non-fiction) and present our "individual theories". One of our "projects" over the years was Monroe's death. Two theories (myself included) involved the housekeeper, Mrs. Murray. I am delighted to see others feel similarily. Sadly, I doubt any of us will know the actual truth but I would still put my money on Murray's involvement.
Renowned Death Hag
Did you get to look thru it? Are the pictures worth the money?
Wow I've loved MM since I was a little girl, 12 years now lol. Has anyone read the book 'the assassination of marilyn monroe'? It has some theories on her death. Personally there's too many things that cloud this case these days and we will never know for sure wether it really was accidental on her part, or if it was accidental murder or blatant murder. I do however have reservations on that Eunice Murray, who washes sheets at 3 am? Also on a docu (can't remember which one) where she thought the cameras had stopped rolling she said something like 'why do I haveto keep doing this/covering this up' (something like that.)
Has anyone else heard the story about Robert kennedy being there that day, he is supposed to have visited MM and they were talking about things and got into an argument.
With MM being an addict, she had a pretty good knowledge on the drugs she was taking and had a tolerance to the meds so she would naturally take more than usual. There was a time she was found to have taken too many during the filming of 'somethings got to give' but generally i have the impression she knew what she could handle.
Who knows tho
I have read so many theory’s on this matter being a huge Marilyn Monroe fan, whatever happened I don't believe we will ever really know. If you look at just the facts Marilyn had given an in-depth interview with life magazine just weeks before her death and she appeared to be in a very positive place and was making plans for the future. She was also looking forward to resuming her career, she had just purchased her home at 1235 Helena drive in Brentwood with these things in place I like to believe it was a tragic accident.
Death Hag
Yes, what is in this book? I have read most of the MM stuff, and seen the one autopsy picture that has been circulated...but this really has me intrigued...why is it worth so much, other than the limited edition printing?
Any thoughts on those CIA documents released a couple of months ago with RFK supposedly telling her doctor to prescribe lots of meds and encourage her to overdose. He was supposed to leave a double supply by her bed or something. Was this bogus?
Why the wait?
I want to ask you all, what is it about waiting until the photographer dies? Is this the same kind of deal about the JFK assasination? How are these "agreements" made & by whom?
The book is pretty amazing. There are pictures of her funeral during each phase and you can clearly see who was (and was not, June Dimaggio) involved. It is not a big book, as Marilyn's funeral was pretty short, but if I could, I'd buy it.
I have seen other death photos of Marilyn, aside from the infamous post-autopsy photo shown in the link. I used to have them stored on my computer, but lost them in a crash a couple of years ago. Both that I recall were quite fuzzy, but look to be authentic. One, taken from above her body, showing only her face, she looks beautiful and peaceful. As though she's just asleep. I suspect this one was taken at the morgue, but clearly pre-autopsy, as the autopsy altered her appearance. The other photo was taken of her in her bed, lying face-down, with a blanket or sheet over her. Taken several feet from the foot of the bed. I think you could see her hair, so she was not completely covered. I got them from a site on the Internet, but periodic searches for them since have not turned up anything.
As for her death, after reading a great many books on Marilyn, I echo the earlier recommendation for The DD Group (http://www.amazon.com/DD-Group-Online-Investigation-Marilyn/dp/0595345204/ref=sr_1_1/102-1434786-1759364?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191723826&sr=8-1) by David Marshall. It's a compilation of pieces of information taken from a lengthy discussion by Marilyn researchers and fans related to Marilyn's death. The main focus of the discussion was to re-create her activites during her last day, leading up to and including her death, and then the actions of those around her in the hours following. I found it to be excellent. I had actually been unable to read Marilyn bios for years, due to the repetition, but this one had me rivetted. I personally believe that her psychiatrist Dr. Ralph Greenson, and the "housekeeper" Mrs. Eunice Murray had a hand in it, but I really don't believe that it was intentional. I think they were somewhat lost without the assistance of Marilyn's medical doctor, Dr. Hyman Engleberg, who was having domestic issues at the time and refused to go to Marilyn's home when summoned that afternoon. Perhaps they were not clear on what the dosage should be. Perhaps they did not realize that Engleberg had given her Nembutal and she'd already had some. I haven't really decided on the details. But, I don't believe the Mob theories, the Kennedy theories, or any of the murder theories. I think it was a stupid, tragic accident.
You nailed it Erin. That's what I think also.OK, my theory on how Marilyn died. Keep in mind that I have been obsessed with marilyn for more than 20 years now, and I have thought about this ALOT!
It's pretty common knowledge that Marilyn kept Eunice Murray as a housekeeper. What many don't know is that Mrs. Murray was in the employ of Dr. Ralph Greenson, Marilyn's physchiatrist. Greenson was clearly obsessed with marilyn, and regularly kept her as his only patient, and frequently had her in his house to "see how a normal family lived". Mrs. Murray was planted at Marilyn's house by Greenson so he could keep tabs on his patient at all times.
Marilyn, in my opinion, had realized that the people she was surrounding herself with were only holding her back, and she was determined to get better. So one day she decided to not see Greenson anymore, and she even fired Mrs. Murray the day Marilyn died. I think that Greenson was so distraught about losing the patient that brought him success and notoriaty, he had Mrs. Murray give Marilyn a barbituate enema in the hopes of making Marilyn believe she was about to overdose on sleeping pills, thus making her believe she still needed Greenson. What Greenson didn't know was that Marilyn's internist, Hyman Engleberg had given Marilyn a prescription for Nembutal (or am I getting it backward) and she had taken several that night. The chloryl hydrate that was in the enema had mixed with the Nembutal and killed her. I do believe her death was acciental in that respect. Mrs. Murray flipped out and called Greenson. He hurried over and together they tried to make it look like a suicide. Greenson broke Marilyn's bedroom window to try to make it look like they had to enter her room from it (as they said her door was locked), and they disposed of the enema's equipment (Murray's son simply threw the garbage in a trash can that was not located at Marilyn's home), Mrs. Murray washed the sheets to get rid of the evidence of an enema (she was found doing laundry at the time the police first arrived), and they positioned her in a way that would be consistant with an overdose suicide. They know she was postioned because there was lividity on the opposite side of her body than where she was found. It wasn't as pronounced as the lividity on her face where she was found laying becasue she had been moved before it could take hold.
So after my long winded theory, the bottom line is that I think Marilyn was accidentally killed by Greenson and Murray, becasue he couldn't fathom being with out the celebrity Marilyn brought him.
Now, as for the Kennedy's involvement, I do not believe they had anything to do with her death but they definately DID cover things up after she was gone. There is the red diary that went mising, that supposedly contained notes of Marilyn's conversations with both Jack and Bobby. Peter Lawford (JFK's Bro in law) was also a friend to Marilyn, but was loyal to the Kennedy's. I think it was he who went to Marilyn's house to recover the diary, even before he died, because he (and supposedly Bobby) were seen at her house earlier that day. When they found she died, they jumped at the chance to "clean house" to protect them from any scandal.
OK, I'm done. Sorry to be so long
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