Buddy Holly

[***diana***]

I believe he would have been, Elvis's style came from Buddy.

Actually, I believe it was the other way around. Buddy played bluegrass until Elvis came through Lubbock on tour. After Buddy saw him, he switched to rock'n'roll. Sonny Curtis said that they were "Elvis clones" for a while.

[GuiltyLittleDeathHag]

You know what's funny. I'm a social worker in a nursing home as some of you may know and a few weeks ago the home started playing oldies (mostly 1940's swing) music for the residents in the halls...Well this week they've been playing Buddy Holly...And it dawned on me "I'm into this and it's playing in a nursing home" LMAO.

I still went around telling my coworkers "I'm glad they at least made it into the 50s and early rock and roll, I like Buddy Holly" lol.

[lardass]

Without a doubt the number 1 question is why would you allow a pilot to fly a plane at night when he failed instrument training? Regardless of the weather conditions even on a clear night, which it wasn't, any loss of horizon could cause vertigo which all pilots suffer. As I recall, when that happens the pilot reverts to his insturments and trusts them to get him/her back on track. Something that he was not capable of doing.

In my experience night flight is something that in itself isn't much of a problem for even student pilots. The biggest problem is depth perception on landing. It doesn't take many lights on the ground to where the sky and ground meet, so while it may be slightly more risky than flying in the day it's nothing that a few hours of experience can't mitigate. Of course that goes out the window when you start to introduce snow, turbulence, and low ceilings.

[bulletnose]

My guess is the question never came up. When you charter an airplane from a commercial aviation service, you usually assume that the personnel and planes are up to the conditions you're going to be flying in. They also probably didn't ask if the pilot did a "walkaround" of the plane, or if he checked fuel levels with a measuring stick and didn't rely on the gauges alone.

The more I read about this accident, the more amazed I am at how quickly things went wrong. It's pretty rare for a pilot to get lost in just a few miles, but as you say, even under clear conditions a pilot can get confused.

I still don't get the issue of the gauge that had to be read backwards from most other makes.... I think I will ask my brother the pilot and see what he says.

My question is to the enigmatic Mr.Dwyer. Why on earth would you allow a pilot who was up for 24 hours,failed insturment flying and if nothing else had questionable weather fly the plane? All these points have been addressed by us Death Hags but not Mr.D. With what info we know it's seems he's the one to blame.

[bulletnose]

I have heard various witnesses that say they did hear noises. When the plane was straining to get altitude people could hear the engine strain under full throttle. Another witness said " it sounded like the plane was low and just over my head" Some actually said they thought they heard a crash. If it is true I wonder why they didn't go and investigate. I wish I could recall where I saw this it may be one of the books written about this tragedy.

[SRVFan]

My question is to the enigmatic Mr.Dwyer. Why on earth would you allow a pilot who was up for 24 hours,failed insturment flying and if nothing else had questionable weather fly the plane? All these points have been addressed by us Death Hags but not Mr.D. With what info we know it's seems he's the one to blame.

Very good questions.

Also the more I read/learn about the crash, the more I believe they knew they were going down.

The freakiest part is the tarrot card reading concerning Buddy. If he did know he was going down, I can't help but wonder if he thought about that before it crashed...

[GuiltyLittleDeathHag]

Very good questions.

Also the more I read/learn about the crash, the more I believe they knew they were going down.

The freakiest part is the tarrot card reading concerning Buddy. If he did know he was going down, I can't help but wonder if he thought about that before it crashed...

What tarrot card reading? I must've missed this!!

[Buttercup]

What tarrot card reading? I must've missed this!!

I found this: http://clickerconspiracy.blogspot.co...new-world.html

Look at second paragraph.

[***diana***]

Wow. Buddy was a religious guy and that would have flown in the face of his Baptist upbringing. I bet he scoffed at that prediction.
Very weird...

[SRVFan]

What tarrot card reading? I must've missed this!!

In fall 1957, the tarot cards told him that his big idol Buddy Holly was going to die on February 3rd. He trusted so firmly in this prophecy that with great probability he sent a warning message to Holly. It's attested that Meek spent February 3, 1958, seriously concerned and didn't calm down until it became clear in the evening that Holly was still alive. Right on the day one year later, on February 3, 1959, he heard on the news that Buddy Holly had died in a plane crash, and his shock was so much the worse. For several days he ran around completely headless, then he draw the conclusion that obviously he was a medium.

http://www.joemeekpage.info/essay_06_E.htm

[walts_loving_wife]

Wow..that gave me chills.

[GuiltyLittleDeathHag]

Hmmm, I am thinking this Meek guy and his tarrot cards are suspect...

[profaneangel]

What tarrot card reading? I must've missed this!!

u and I both!!!!!

[racingfan]

I have heard various witnesses that say they did hear noises. When the plane was straining to get altitude people could hear the engine strain under full throttle. Another witness said " it sounded like the plane was low and just over my head" Some actually said they thought they heard a crash. If it is true I wonder why they didn't go and investigate. I wish I could recall where I saw this it may be one of the books written about this tragedy.

It's in Larry Lehmer's book, "The Day The Music Died." I thought that was strange too, when I read that several people heard this plane flying low and possibly in trouble and they didn't go investigate? I would have been out the door in a flash...

[racingfan]

My question is to the enigmatic Mr.Dwyer. Why on earth would you allow a pilot who was up for 24 hours,failed insturment flying and if nothing else had questionable weather fly the plane? All these points have been addressed by us Death Hags but not Mr.D. With what info we know it's seems he's the one to blame.

This is what interests me: Dwyer waited on the platform watching the plane fly away. He thought he saw it descending but assumed it was an optical illusion. After he went home, he called the Fargo airport repeatedly to see if Roger had filed the flight plan and made it to the airport. This indicates to ne he was worried about this flight from the beginning. Why else would he bother standing there in the tower watching it take off? If he was confident in his pilot, wouldn't he have just gone home?

I think Dwyer made an error in judgement -- unfortunately, he made this error on a very important flight and sadly, it overshadows all his accomplishments. His flight service always has that stigma of being the one that Buddy Holly and 2 other young rock and roll stars died on.

[mrsr]

Always thought the tarot card reading thing was rather bizarre!

I think you're right re: Dwyer, racingfan. I wonder if he experienced a marked drop in business in the months following the crash?

[SRVFan]

I really would like to hear Dwyer's thoughts on this. His actions the night of the crash are certainly suspect.

[bulletnose]

Mr.D has all of us scrathing our heads. I often wondered what effect the crash had on him and his business. As Racinfan stated his wife blamed "that Buddy Holly" for their problems. I would guess Mr.D is sick of answering questions about what he knows. I will say that the crash was pretty much forgotten,as was our heros, until Don Maclean and later the movie,The Buddy Holly Story. Then with the renewed interest the questions must have started again. I keep trying to guess just what Mr.D knows. Did Buddy talk a nervous Ritchie into taking the flight? Did Buddy talk Mr.D and the pilot into taking the flight? I know this is a stretch but frankly I'm at a loss for whatever Mr.D knows.

[SRVFan]

Mr.D has all of us scrathing our heads. I often wondered what effect the crash had on him and his business. As Racinfan stated his wife blamed "that Buddy Holly" for their problems. I would guess Mr.D is sick of answering questions about what he knows. I will say that the crash was pretty much forgotten,as was our heros, until Don Maclean and later the movie,The Buddy Holly Story. Then with the renewed interest the questions must have started again. I keep trying to guess just what Mr.D knows. Did Buddy talk a nervous Ritchie into taking the flight? Did Buddy talk Mr.D and the pilot into taking the flight? I know this is a stretch but frankly I'm at a loss for whatever Mr.D knows.

Does it even have to do with Buddy? Why did Ritchie's family threaten to sue him at one point?

[RogerV]

I would really like to know how large Dwyer's fleet of planes was. Did they have a plane that would have been better suited to a rough flight, or at least one with an "attitude gyro" RP could understand? Maybe the Bonanza was the best they had...

["What Tha....?"]

If I remember correctly, from what I've read, Dwyer's "fleet" of planes were only 3 planes and the other two were much older than the one that crashed. I've always resented the fact that some rinky-dink, fly-by-night (no pun intended) pilot, wasn't properly trained enough to fly the plane and killed 3 of the best Rock N Roll stars that day. Has anybody read the report of the last flight test that Roger Peterson took? It is in "The Day The Music Died". How pathetic! Why Dwyer kept this kid gainfully employed is beyond me.

["What Tha....?"]

When I re-read "The Day The Music Died" on the anniversary of Buddy's death, I came across an interesting theory that discussed IF it wasn't pilot error that caused the crash, it could've been too much weight in the plane. I stress the IF, because after all the books I've read on the subject and by reading the flight report, I still believe Roger Peterson was fully responsible for this crash.
But, Larry Lehmer goes into detail about how much weight was in the plane, caused by all the dirty clothes the guys piled into it. Also, how where each man sat in what section of the plane might have made the plane difficult to handle.
According to specifications, in order for the Bonanza to fly correctly, the weight by humans on the plane has to be distributed in a certain manner. J.P. and Ritchie were both in the back seats. Buddy was in front, next to the pilot. Because J.P. supposedly lied about his weight, for publicity purposes, and because Ritchie was a large man for his age, they would've weighed too much to both be in the back seats. If either J.P. or Ritchie would've switched seats with Buddy, supposedly the plane would've handled a little bit better and might not have crashed. A believable theory? You decide.

[SRVFan]

When I re-read "The Day The Music Died" on the anniversary of Buddy's death, I came across an interesting theory that discussed IF it wasn't pilot error that caused the crash, it could've been too much weight in the plane. I stress the IF, because after all the books I've read on the subject and by reading the flight report, I still believe Roger Peterson was fully responsible for this crash.
But, Larry Lehmer goes into detail about how much weight was in the plane, caused by all the dirty clothes the guys piled into it. Also, how where each man sat in what section of the plane might have made the plane difficult to handle.
According to specifications, in order for the Bonanza to fly correctly, the weight by humans on the plane has to be distributed in a certain manner. J.P. and Ritchie were both in the back seats. Buddy was in front, next to the pilot. Because J.P. supposedly lied about his weight, for publicity purposes, and because Ritchie was a large man for his age, they would've weighed too much to both be in the back seats. If either J.P. or Ritchie would've switched seats with Buddy, supposedly the plane would've handled a little bit better and might not have crashed. A believable theory? You decide.

I know that when I was in the Army and we got on a plane in full battle gear, we were all weighed before getting on the plane. Certain people had to sit in certain places.

[RogerV]

When I re-read "The Day The Music Died" on the anniversary of Buddy's death, I came across an interesting theory that discussed IF it wasn't pilot error that caused the crash, it could've been too much weight in the plane. I stress the IF, because after all the books I've read on the subject and by reading the flight report, I still believe Roger Peterson was fully responsible for this crash.
But, Larry Lehmer goes into detail about how much weight was in the plane, caused by all the dirty clothes the guys piled into it. Also, how where each man sat in what section of the plane might have made the plane difficult to handle.
According to specifications, in order for the Bonanza to fly correctly, the weight by humans on the plane has to be distributed in a certain manner. J.P. and Ritchie were both in the back seats. Buddy was in front, next to the pilot. Because J.P. supposedly lied about his weight, for publicity purposes, and because Ritchie was a large man for his age, they would've weighed too much to both be in the back seats. If either J.P. or Ritchie would've switched seats with Buddy, supposedly the plane would've handled a little bit better and might not have crashed. A believable theory? You decide.

Believable, but I don't think it applies. I wish I could cite it, but one of the reports I read noted the small amount of luggage that was found at the crash site. If the plane had been seriously overloaded, it would have been noticed on takeoff. An overloaded plane would have been more difficult to control when it encountered turbulence, but IMO it was already a lost cause; RP did not know how to read the Sperry F3 attitude gyro. I read an interview that was on NPR a couple years ago, and the expert they were interviewing said once they entered a heavy cloud, they wouldn't have been able to see ANYTHING; no lights on the ground, no stars, no moon, no landmarks of any kind. This type of circumstance can be unnerving for even the most experienced pilots, and it becomes absolutely critical that they rely on their instruments.

I would agree that it was idiotic for Sperry to design an attitude Gyro that worked in the exact opposite of all the others, but they did. Why RP never noticed it is beyond me. Since he didn't yet have his instrument rating, perhaps he had never flown the Bonanza under conditions where it was really needed.

[Aviatrix]

When I re-read "The Day The Music Died" on the anniversary of Buddy's death, I came across an interesting theory that discussed IF it wasn't pilot error that caused the crash, it could've been too much weight in the plane. I stress the IF, because after all the books I've read on the subject and by reading the flight report, I still believe Roger Peterson was fully responsible for this crash.
But, Larry Lehmer goes into detail about how much weight was in the plane, caused by all the dirty clothes the guys piled into it. Also, how where each man sat in what section of the plane might have made the plane difficult to handle.
According to specifications, in order for the Bonanza to fly correctly, the weight by humans on the plane has to be distributed in a certain manner. J.P. and Ritchie were both in the back seats. Buddy was in front, next to the pilot. Because J.P. supposedly lied about his weight, for publicity purposes, and because Ritchie was a large man for his age, they would've weighed too much to both be in the back seats. If either J.P. or Ritchie would've switched seats with Buddy, supposedly the plane would've handled a little bit better and might not have crashed. A believable theory? You decide.

Actually, earlier today I was reading this thread and thought that weight and balance issues might have played a part. But this isn't something I can comment on yet... my brain is sort of going back and forth on this issue.

[Dan33185]

Another question-- does anyone know how close the nearest house was to the crash site? I truly don't know how much noise a crash like that makes, but nobody heard or saw anything. However, considering it was rural Iowa in the VERY early morning of a weekday, everyone was probably in bed, fast asleep.

Not sure if the houses that are there now were there the night of the crash, but if they were, the closest house is less than a quarter mile from the crash, you can see it clearly from the site.

[lardass]

Believable, but I don't think it applies. I wish I could cite it, but one of the reports I read noted the small amount of luggage that was found at the crash site. If the plane had been seriously overloaded, it would have been noticed on takeoff. An overloaded plane would have been more difficult to control when it encountered turbulence, but IMO it was already a lost cause; RP did not know how to read the Sperry F3 attitude gyro. I read an interview that was on NPR a couple years ago, and the expert they were interviewing said once they entered a heavy cloud, they wouldn't have been able to see ANYTHING; no lights on the ground, no stars, no moon, no landmarks of any kind. This type of circumstance can be unnerving for even the most experienced pilots, and it becomes absolutely critical that they rely on their instruments.

I would agree that it was idiotic for Sperry to design an attitude Gyro that worked in the exact opposite of all the others, but they did. Why RP never noticed it is beyond me. Since he didn't yet have his instrument rating, perhaps he had never flown the Bonanza under conditions where it was really needed.

When I re-read "The Day The Music Died" on the anniversary of Buddy's death, I came across an interesting theory that discussed IF it wasn't pilot error that caused the crash, it could've been too much weight in the plane. I stress the IF, because after all the books I've read on the subject and by reading the flight report, I still believe Roger Peterson was fully responsible for this crash.
But, Larry Lehmer goes into detail about how much weight was in the plane, caused by all the dirty clothes the guys piled into it. Also, how where each man sat in what section of the plane might have made the plane difficult to handle.
According to specifications, in order for the Bonanza to fly correctly, the weight by humans on the plane has to be distributed in a certain manner. J.P. and Ritchie were both in the back seats. Buddy was in front, next to the pilot. Because J.P. supposedly lied about his weight, for publicity purposes, and because Ritchie was a large man for his age, they would've weighed too much to both be in the back seats. If either J.P. or Ritchie would've switched seats with Buddy, supposedly the plane would've handled a little bit better and might not have crashed. A believable theory? You decide.

I ran a weight and balance on a random Bonanza out of curiosity. I assumed a weight of 170 lbs for Peterson and Holley, and 220 and 280 for Valens and the Bopper, respectively. I assumed 20lbs of baggage in cabin as well as 20 lbs in the baggage compartment. I also assumed 50 gallons of fuel on board. Using these numbers on the aircraft (which may not completely accurately represent the crash aircraft) the numbers came out below max weight and within cg limits. Based on this I would discount the idea that it was overloaded or out of cg. Furthermore if the plane were outside tolerances the issues would have shown up on takeoff rather than climb out. They are more likely to have never gotten off the ground than crashed that long after takeoff.
One thing to consider before you blame Peterson for the crash is the weather information he was provided. The CAB crash report makes it very clear that he was not given all of the appropriate information. Based on the information he had, his skills should have been adequate.

[RogerV]

I think this was posted someplace I've read, so I hope I'm not repeating. When the wreckage was examined, the two magneto switches were in the "off" position. This is the equivalent of turning off the key in a car; the engine stops. I asked my brother (who has almost 30 years flying experience, both military and civilian) about it, wondering if it might have been a last-ditch attempt to slow the plane down. He said it was more likely that they were turned off to help prevent a fire if they did crash. In either case, it means that RP must have realized at the very last minute, or more likely very last seconds, that something was terribly wrong. Did Buddy, the Bopper, and Richie realize it also? We will never know.

[bulletnose]

Does it even have to do with Buddy? Why did Ritchie's family threaten to sue him at one point?

I'm not blaming Buddy I'm just trying to find the answers that Mr.Dwyer refuses to disclose. If you recall, Mr.D knows the reason why they crashed "but too many people would be hurt if they knew the truth", at least that's his story and so far he's sticking to it!
As for Ritchie,I agree the Valens family was suing The Dwyer Flying Service but ultimately settled out of court. Why? I wish I knew perhaps their lawyer thought was the best they were going to get.

[bulletnose]

Lardass,Thanks again. The information you give is priceless and settles a lot of questions. I do recall the question about the weight and your input settles that. Now if you could just persuade Mr.D....................

[joS3ph]

Lardass:

I calculated the weight/balance/center of gravity a few years previous, and I came to the same conclusion. I see no issues with weight/balance or center of gravity. Good work.

[lardass]

I think this was posted someplace I've read, so I hope I'm not repeating. When the wreckage was examined, the two magneto switches were in the "off" position. This is the equivalent of turning off the key in a car; the engine stops. I asked my brother (who has almost 30 years flying experience, both military and civilian) about it, wondering if it might have been a last-ditch attempt to slow the plane down. He said it was more likely that they were turned off to help prevent a fire if they did crash. In either case, it means that RP must have realized at the very last minute, or more likely very last seconds, that something was terribly wrong. Did Buddy, the Bopper, and Richie realize it also? We will never know.

It also puzzles me considering the rpm gauge was pegged at 2500 iirc, and nothing else in the ignition system was unusual. I think the CAB report also states that they thought the engine was turning. I'm not sure if windmilling would be enough to cause the damage to the prop hub that was noted.
I'm wondering if anyone knows if the Bonanza had push button or key magnetos. If they were the push button type it's very conceivable that they could have been turned off in the crash/tumble of the aircraft. Key type would be a little more difficult to explain away.

[RogerV]

I'm not blaming Buddy I'm just trying to find the answers that Mr.Dwyer refuses to disclose. If you recall, Mr.D knows the reason why they crashed "but too many people would be hurt if they knew the truth", at least that's his story and so far he's sticking to it!
As for Ritchie,I agree the Valens family was suing The Dwyer Flying Service but ultimately settled out of court. Why? I wish I knew perhaps their lawyer thought was the best they were going to get.

How many people are there left to be hurt 52 years after the accident?? I will bet Dwyer never will reveal the reason because: a) it doesn't exist; or b) he is still covering his own ass.

Somewhere, I read that Dwyer had an "ironclad" insurance policy that limited loss of life claims to $25,000 a person. I'd guess that they decided to settle rather than go through a lengthy and expensive civil trial.

[joS3ph]

I don't know how many people are familiar with the model/type of airplane involved in this incident, but this is the cockpit of a similar 1947 Model 35 Beechcraft Bonanza, N3794N.

[SRVFan]

I don't know how many people are familiar with the model/type of airplane involved in this incident, but this is the cockpit of a similar 1947 Model 35 Beechcraft Bonanza, N3794N.

So the pilot would have been on the right side?

[joS3ph]

It can be moved to either side, allowing operation from the left or right seat.

[RogerV]

in the along the fence photo in the cornfield,two fairly standard looking late forty sedans are in the top right,and perhaps an ambulance obscured by the man walking towards the plane. i went back and looked again,and what may be a 1958 ford is seen in the distance between the two older cars and what is clearly an ambulance over the mans shoulder.

There appears to be what was called a "side entrance" hearse or ambulance in the picture. It was based on either a limousine or "long wheelbase sedan" with "suicide" back doors (hinged at the rear). The pillar between the front and rear doors was modified so it could be removed, or the latching mechanism on the doors was modified so it wasn't needed. The front and rear seats were modified so there was room for only one person on the left side. A body or patient on a gurney could then be loaded through the modified side doors, with room enough for the driver in the front seat and an attendant on the back seat.

[racingfan]

It can be moved to either side, allowing operation from the left or right seat.

I'm pretty sure it was on the left in this case. Dwyer said in an interview (I believe it was on VH1's "Behind the Music: The Day the Music Died" episode) that Buddy was on the right hand side and had to get out so Peterson could get in and sit on the left. He doesn't recall if Ritchie or Bopper was in the very back.

[bulletnose]

DWYER TALKS!!! Stop the presses! Imagine the sphinx of all flying services opens up. However, I see he doesn't recall how Ritchie or The Bopper were sitting. I guess the biggest tragedy in the history of your business would be something you couldn't remember.
I wish I had seen that special. Did anyone ask him about the big secret? I can just guess his answer.
Looking at the cockpit of that Beechcraft it is rather cramped and makes any chance of surviving a crash very slim. I appreciate all the pilots that share their knowledge about flying and aircraft. I helps clear the air and answers many questions that we have.

[skynyrd77]

I was looking at this picture and it looks like Ritchie's pants are pulled down. Then I found a COLOR pic and it confirms what I thought:

Pulled down? or possibly ripped off.....

["What Tha....?"]

I don't know if Dwyer's wife, Barbara, is still alive too, but she sounds like a really wonderful (being sarcastic, here) person as well. Besides the comment already posted about how "Buddy Holly ruined their lives", when she was interviewed about the lawsuits the families of Buddy, Ritchie and JP filed against Dwyer she said "before the lawsuit papers hit the courts, our lawyer told us that if we wanted to take a vacation, we better do it now because we might not be able to afford it after the lawsuits are filed. So we did. We went away on vacation for a month, not sure of what we'd come home to."
Gee, how nice. 3 people were killed because of Dwyer hiring an inept pilot and they go away on vacation. Meanwhile distraught family members were busy identifying the bodies and planning funerals. Hope the Dwyers had fun!

[racingfan]

DWYER TALKS!!! Stop the presses! Imagine the sphinx of all flying services opens up. However, I see he doesn't recall how Ritchie or The Bopper were sitting. I guess the biggest tragedy in the history of your business would be something you couldn't remember.
I wish I had seen that special. Did anyone ask him about the big secret? I can just guess his answer.
Looking at the cockpit of that Beechcraft it is rather cramped and makes any chance of surviving a crash very slim. I appreciate all the pilots that share their knowledge about flying and aircraft. I helps clear the air and answers many questions that we have.

http://www.myspace.com/video/vid/59238957

[racingfan]

This version has a longer intro on it, that I've never seen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkfMJ...&tracker=False

[Haunting_Immortal]

Can someone please post a transcript or summary of the video? I have dial- up net and cannot load it, but am dying to know what he said, if anything interesting.

[racingfan]

Interesting note: according to the Goldrosen bio on Buddy, Dwyer's service was NOT actually instrument-only certified. It was certified for visual flights only. None of Dwyer's pilots were supposed to fly under conditions that required navigation by instruments.

[SRVFan]

The more and more I look at this photo:



The more and more I see a face...

[Kyouya Ohtori Ouran Host]

The more and more I look at this photo:



The more and more I see a face...

Ooh...now I kinda see it...

[bulletnose]

It does resemble a face but seems out of proportion to the size of his leg.

[lardass]

To me it looks too small to be a face.

[mrsr]

I agree, it's another optical illusion (seems there are loads of 'faces' in the crash pics - creepy!) and damn I would hate to think that his body was contorted to that degree!